At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about ‘Honoring’ God

At BoshoffThe recent invitation to debate sent to Mr. At Boshoff by Dion Knoesen was as a result of the below notice sent out by CRC, to their members and undersigned by Mr. Boshoff.

This notice was dated 16 November 2010 with the Subject: “Honour God”

We wish to state the reason for the intended debate with Mr. Boshoff.  We hope to either persuade Mr. Boshoff to give heed to proper rendering of the Scriptures for his own benefit and also to benefit those who are under his shepherding.

1Ti 4:16    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

On the CRC website it s mentioned that Mr. Boshoff studied at “A Bible College” for three years fulltime. Unfortunately no name is given to this Bible College.

In the last paragraph on this webpage the it says the following:

“He has been described as focussed, passionate and fervent in his hunger for the Word of God and explosive in his dynamic teaching of it. His positively dynamic and practical messages are equaled in their refreshing relevancy to their bold authenticity and doctrinal accuracy. “

When looking exegetically into his notice “Honour God” we have to question his “authenticity and doctrinal accuracy.”

For informative purposes the quoted Scriptures by Mr. Boshoff is discussed below in RED

As Paul wrote:

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;


Email sent out from CRC Church to it’s congregation:

 width=From: CRC Christian Church
Sent: 16 November 2010 01:00 PM

Honour God

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God.

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God.

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give.

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success.

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law.

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance[at]crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-xxx xxxx.

Be Blessed,

At Boshoff


A Critique on how to “Honor God” written by At Boshoff – Critique notes in red

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:   It is utterly disappointing to notice that Eccl. 10:19 is cited and interpreted in the way At Boshoff has done so in his notice to the congregation at CRC.

When reading what King Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes the basic understanding and proper rendering of the Scripture quoted is in fact quite the opposite, as indicated here by Mr. Boshoff.

The passage in context from the first verse (In fact the first chapter of Ecclesiastes) has to do with what the foolish do and the evils resulting from their actions in this world, which also includes verse 10.

Solomon’s message is one of vanity to all that are under the sun, which includes “Money is the answer to all things” What Solomon actually means in writing this is that man’s trust in money which according to man answers all things, is vanity. Their trust and security should be in God and not in money.

It is vanity of fools who rely on their money for all things instead of God.

Psa 62:8  Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Psa 62:10  Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

Psa 62:11  God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

Mar 10:24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:17  Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life

Why do so many pastors not put their faith in God but rather exploit the people, after all they are always accusing those who do not have money as being without faith – yet when they need the money they rely on the people instead of their faith??

The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.]

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Where is this revelation in the Bible, that our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God??

The revelation I find is that our love for the Lord Jesus, is to keep His commandments not the love of filthy lucre. Our love is manifested in our obedience to Him, our trust in Him alone not in mammon and riches.

There are only two important books and that is the Bible and having your name written in the Book of Life.]

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Ouch!!! First of all it was not Israel who “tampered with the gold and silver” but one man named Achan the son of Camri who had stolen some of the spoils of looted booty of Jericho. (This also had nothing to do with his own money, silver or gold or any of his personal belongings which is referred to here Mr. Boshoff in quoting Joshua 7 for gaining money from New Testament congregants.)

Yes, Israel as a corporate entity was punished as result of the theft by Achan, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the personal wealth individuals were given by God, which were then somehow to the interpretation of this part of Scripture withheld from God.

Firstly this was in disobedience to God, because God placed a ban on personal gain from the looted goods.

Secondly theft was the cause of the punishment – taking things not given to you by God.

Thirdly it was the covetousness of Achan that was addressed in the punishment. Covetousness is what God warns us against throughout the Scriptures.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

To be under the shepherding of someone who does not understand context and doctrine or does understand context and twists it out of context, is not promoted by Scripture:

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Some more doctrines lacking regarding the tithe very applicable to the Old Testament. Using this one verse for the purpose of tithing is not sufficient and there were many tithing’s applicable not just one. To understand this tithe there were basically 4 types of tithing in the Old Testament ONLY

a) The tithe to the Levites. Deut.14: 27.

The Levites were the “government” of Israel and due to them not having a share in the land allocated to the rest of the tribes, those allocated land were to use of their produce to give to the Levites.

b) The tithe of the Levites to the Zadokites. Neh.10: 38.

Now this is where Malachi is used to place unnecessary burdens on believers today.

First of all, tithings were purely laws given in the Torah or Old Testament. So commanding and condemning people to tithe today by quoting Malachi 10, is basically going back to the Torah or the Law, putting congregants back under the law.

Secondly the Scriptures used below to state that Jesus endorses tithing are totally out of context with regard to tithing and God’s Word in fact it refers to this as works by the Pharisees to justify themselves, something God loathes. In Fact God says woe to them that tithe! – will explain when we discuss these passages.

Thirdly when Malachi 3:10 is read and understood in context it refers to the tithe in a) above, the tithe in Deut 14:27 which was received from the tribes and given to the Levites. The Levites in turn were to skim off a tithe from this tithe (Neh10:38) to give to the priests attending to temple duties. So it was the Levites who were robbing God not the people.

It is interesting when reading the “Works Of Josephus” the Sadducees were the rich of the day who were using the tithes to enrich themselves. Josephus admits to this as he himself was a Sadducee.

Historically it is proven that the Sadducees were extremely rich due to the financial contributions by ordinary people who were forced to pay tribute.

There is no new thing under the son. Today’s Sadducees and Pharisees apply the same rule. The flock enriches them as result of their own rendering and contortions of Scripture.

The clergy were robbing God of tithes not the people, hence the rebuke to them in Malachi 10.

Have any of the Malachi 10 promoters ever read the following to any of their congregations?

Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

Mic 3:11  The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Mic 3:12  Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

The third type of tithe:

c) The tithe toward the annual Holy Days. Deut. 14: 22 – 26.

3 Times a year the Israelites were to attend Holy Feasts at Jerusalem and for this they needed to set aside a tithe of their harvests etc. If they were too far from Jerusalem they could sell the targeted tithed articles and turn it into money. This they would spend upon themselves and the Levites once they arrive in Jerusalem.

d) The tithe to the less fortunate. Deut.14: 28 – 29.

This is also a tithe to obviously assist the needy in the Old Testament.

Although a tithe in the New Testament is never mentioned in this regard there are many Scriptures which clearly say that the needy ought to be cared for.

When one searches for the word “Tithe” in the New Testament there are  two references one in Matt. 23:23 and the other in Luke 11:42 which notably is quoted by Mr. Boshoff and will be discussed.]

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Who is man that he is able to stand in the way of God’s purpose? Is God dependant on man?

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

It is agreeable that one’s actions open you to success or failure, but to use Acts 5 as yardstick for failure and success is totally out of context.

I know of many people struggling financially who humbly adores God and has extreme credence in the Lord Jesus, but who realize that their own actions caused their calamity. Those being poor and suffering financially in this life without rejecting the Lord Jesus who are willing to endure to the end will be first in the Kingdom.

Although there are certain quotations by the MHCC I do not fully agree with the MHCC renders the following understanding with regard to Ananias and Sapphira which I could not have worded better:

The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was, that they were ambitious of being thought eminent disciples, when they were not true disciples. Hypocrites may deny themselves, may forego their worldly advantage in one instance, with a prospect of finding their account in something else. They were covetous of the wealth of the world, and distrustful of God and his providence. They thought they might serve both God and mammon. They thought to deceive the apostles. The Spirit of God in Peter discerned the principle of unbelief reigning in the heart of Ananias. But whatever Satan might suggest, he could not have filled the heart of Ananias with this wickedness had he not been consenting. The falsehood was an attempt to deceive the Spirit of truth, who so manifestly spoke and acted by the apostles. The crime of Ananias was not his retaining part of the price of the land; he might have kept it all, had he pleased; but his endeavouring to impose upon the apostles with an awful lie, from a desire to make a vain show, joined with covetousness. But if we think to put a cheat upon God, we shall put a fatal cheat upon our own souls. How sad to see those relations who should quicken one another to that which is good, hardening one another in that which is evil! And this punishment was in reality mercy to vast numbers. It would cause strict self-examination, prayer, and dread of hypocrisy, covetousness, and vain-glory, and it should still do so. It would prevent the increase of false professors. Let us learn hence how hateful falsehood is to the God of truth, and not only shun a direct lie, but all advantages from the use of doubtful expressions, and double meaning in our speech.]

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Is Mr. Boshoff rightfully dividing the Word here?

To understand Matthew 23:23 effectively one needs to read from verse 1!

These were the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself. The Lord Jesus was warning against the Pharisees and rebuked them for putting credence or weight to their tithes. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Lord Jesus most certainly does not say that tithing is the most basic thing in this Scripture. In fact He says woe to those that tithe and ignore the important things that God wants. The Lord Jesus in fact says that it is NOT the most basic thing. He says the “weightier” matters are more basic than the tithe.

Luke 11:42 Again out of context and basically the same rebuke goes out to the Pharisees who promoted and relied on tithing as the basic thing at the time of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I do not find: “Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing” What I do find is another rebuke to the Pharisees and Scribes who felt very secure in basic tithing: Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What I have found in CRC when I used to go there was that they were promoting security in tithing, but the more important and weightier matters such as keeping the Lords commandments in our love for Him, I personally never heard in any sermon by Mr. Boshoff.

Is this not precisely why the Lord Jesus in His Word rebukes the Pharisees?

In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 the focus is more on the “weightier” matters than the tithe.

A very repetitive part of Scripture used by Mr. Boshoff is Hebrews 7

Gen: 14:18: And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the highest God.

Gen: 14:19: And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen: 14:20: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.  And he gave him tithes of all.

This is to “prove” that tithing was established before the time of Moses, the Torah or law and that tithes have to be given to the priest. To find out what the Melchizedek tithe meant one has to not only read this passage, but also read on to verses 22 & 23.

From verse 18 – 20 it is clear that this was not Abraham’s belongings which were tithed, but rather the booty or loot he had gathered from conquering the enemy.

Gen:14:22: And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen: 14:23: That I will not take from a thread even to a shoe latchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Although he gave away 10% of the booty, he stated that he did not even want any of it, because it was not his.

It is also interesting to note that this was a ONCE OFF event, which never took place again.

Ninety percent and more of Scripture quoted for the purposes of pleading for tithes are taken out of context today. God says let few be teachers, because those teachers teaching the flock will be held accountable for what they teach.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

James:3:1: My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.]

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Reading Mal 10 from verse 1 rather suggests that the audience addressed by God were the priests as already discussed. The “storehouse” is definitely not the New Testament church. The New Testament church is the bride of Christ and not a building built with brick and mortar.]

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

[Note:  The Lord Jesus calls for heed to doctrine rather than finances and I do hope that Mr. Boshoff would rather be obedient to the Lord in the weightier matters.]

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

[Note:  Figures do not impress God. One such an example is: Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The quote Mr. Boshoff uses in Matthew 23 was discussed already and to conclude, using this verse as a basis for endorsing tithing is basically in support of what the Pharisees promoted – That Mr. Boshoff is teaching here and to the congregation is absolutely the same what the Pharisees were doing.

What is important however and of grave concern, are the proselytes made by CRC. This is also found in Matthew 23 the chapter in which the verse occurs that Mr. Boshoff uses to preach the diametric opposite to what the Lord Jesus says in this chapter: Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16  Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?]

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

[Note:  I suppose it is not worth mentioning all those pastors and lay persons who have left CRC and would like to see Mr. Boshoff repent of his ways.]

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance@crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going
to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-525 2883.

[Note:  It is agreeable that feeding under privileged Children is a very good work, yet the concern remains what these poor children are being fed spiritually when such doctrine as discussed here is being preached.

Hitler once said that if the hearts of the children are won, the next generation will be won.

It is also fact the “Church” of Rome has built a multitude of schools and hospitals and proclaims ex-Cathedra that winning the minds of children before age 7 will ensure that they will be won permanently for the Mother “Church”.  I see the same happening at CRC so feeding children is an outward appearance coaxing them into a greater deception of being taught wrong doctrine

Remember what James wrote; if the correct faith is dead the works mean nothing.

It is the correct doctrine that will ensure the correct faith – this is why the works may be more detrimental to the children in the longer term.]

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Angela

Starlight wrote:

CRC’s motto is bothersome to me: “I WILL, I CAN”. it sounds like they still need to do a lot of ‘dying to self’.

Christian wrote:

Hi there,

It is really concerning to see Christians like yourselves “bad mouth” other ministries and people like this. I am not judging any of you but is this really CHRIST-like actions? (Rhetorical question please do not answer) I truly think one can spend one’s time in a way more constructive way to build the Kingdom of God.

Before any of you ask – yes I am in CRC and have been a proud member for 10 years and will remain a member of the church for the rest of my life. I can personally testify where the local church (CRC) helped me and many others through some rough times.

To mentions a few:
—————————–
1) My church family (which includes PS JJ btw) were the only people that stood with me and my family when my dad passed away.
2) One of my friends in the church was struggling to get a job for months and he was the only breadwinner in his household I can testify that CRC Pretoria took care of him and his family week in and week out during this period. Members of the church also helped him to find and keep a job (which he has to this very day).
3) Another friend had issues with drug abuse the church walked a journey with her and is clean today thanks to the guidance and counselling of the church.
4) Personally I was struggling financially as well and through guidance by pastors from the local church they guided me to make the right decisions month in and month out to get my financial struggles in order – today I can bless others struggling financially and by walking a journey with the individual.
5) Within the different ministries in CRC I can see how people really care about people and take care of each other – as Iron sharpens Iron so shall one man sharpen another. (And I do not mean this in a religious way but in a REAL WAY).
6) Another friend of mine was a high school dropout, CRC assisted him in getting a matric certificate and today he is the owner of a business that employs 10 people thus 10 people can feed their families daily because he stayed planted and under spiritual authority. By guidance from God and church members (as we know God uses people) he achieved that and will keep achieving great things to further the Kingdom of God in a real way.

This is just to mention a few items – there are many other examples where we can truly see the fruit of the local church.

Let us just be honest here:
————————————–
1) People are people (and no one is free of sin)
2) CRC is a local church – and a local church have people in it. Because of my statement at (1) any church I don’t care where in the world – will have issues because there are people involved.
3) The local church is a hospital for people with problems (which we all have). The Church is there to take care of it’s flock and as I testified CRC is doing just that.

In conclusion I would like to remind all of you – that we are on this earth to build the Kingdom of God and to testify of God’s greatness in our lives. Let us not create division in God’s church. I would also like to encourage you to reach out to people in your local communities and invite them to your local church (which ever church you may be attending) . Let us work together and not against each other.

May God bless you and keep you.

Love you all.

I am also a member of CRC. I have been to many other churches and I did not fit in. I did not feel welcome at all. CRC has made an effort to help me in my time of need. People should learn not to judge. Pastor At teaches us to get off our lazy behind and do something about our problems.. Not sit in the corner and expect handouts. There is nothing false in that. These people who call themselves Christians are quick to Judge.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Angela

Apparently Jesus Christ has nothing to do with solving your problems, because At teaches you “to get off our lazy behind and do something about our problems…”

Now it is 100% true that if you are lazy things ain’t gonna happen, but that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am so glad you feel welcome in your ‘church of positive self-help‘. The church where they preached repentance of sin and changing your ways did welcome you, you just didn’t welcome their message.

At’s church message is this “get of your lazy behind, get a job, start a business, hire people – empower them, and then pay At more tithing” – It’s called a PYRAMID SCHEME Angela. Which level are you on?

2Tim 4:2-4 (KJV)
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

searching_sound_doctrine

I became a member of CRC london at the start of this year, however I have been born again before joining CRC. Prior to joining CRC I was in a church that follows Bethel church teachings with things such as gold dust landing on the palm of your hands, which I honestly think was moisture that reflected of light making it seem like glitter. I had no knowledge of NAR, seeker sensitive churches, churches that follow the toronto blessing and CRC have some of these characteristics. I have been prayed for and ‘slain in the spirit’ and recieved tongues from them as well. however I always knew in my heart that there was something not completely correct about CRC, even though they preach from various places of the bible and not stick with certain chapters and verses, but it almost always relates to giving money and fullfilling the great commision which is to spread the gospel. but in my heart i feel like its just a numbers thing . I felt amazing after receiving my tongues and I cant really say it was fake or not as there was a lot of emotion and a lot of people praying in tongues around me which could’ve influenced me to just copy them, to be honest I cant remember the event too well. I believe i’m being led to this page and various youtube videos of pastors like John Macarthur and Gino jennings (even though I think Gino Jenings is maybe going over the top on his teachings) to lead me out of CRC and onto the right doctrines and teachings of Jesus, but i’m still not too sure because I see the numerous amounts of people that are getting baptised and the amount of discipleship going on, however if its teaching is all false, it doesnt matter how good it looks on the outside. Has anyone else been in a similar position to myself and if so how did you decide whether to stay or leave CRC. I have a great desire to follow God and if it were up to me I would do it on my own but the bible says that it is good to have fellowship with god fearing people, however I want to make sure im in a place with the right doctrines rather than a place of hype worship and manipulation of the scriptures.

I have a couple of questions…
1) Do apostles still exist today or was that only for the 12 apostles that witnessed the first hand death and ressurection of jesus christ?
2) Are speaking in tongues for people today and is it always a heavenly language or can it mean something else?
3) I believe im saved but I still continue in my sins that ive been in since before becoming born again. i know that its impossible me not to sin, however how can i know for sure from scriptures that i am saved?

Thank you.

[Edited by DTW – your comment landed in our SPAM section, I have removed it to the comments section and we will answer you shortly]

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear searching_sound_doctrine

Oh gosh I started to type a comment and then my laptop decided to just shut down  :ohno: So here I start again.

Right let’s answer your questions and we will look at scripture to find the answers.

Q1. Do apostles still exist today or was that only for the 12 apostles that witnessed the first hand death and ressurection of jesus christ?

Eph 2:17-21 (KJV)
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

You, me and everyone else are “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God”. The bible says Acts 2:42 “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.” Notice it’s past tense, we continue in the biblical doctrine presented to us by the Apostles.”

The apostles and prophets are those mentioned in the bible and today we have the written record of their work in the Scriptures. It was the 12 Apostles and prophets who penning the Word of God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The apostles were eye witnesses of Jesus Christ’s miracles, his death, burial and resurrection and his ascension into heaven.

We do not have modern day prophets and Apostles because the church was built on the Apostles with Jesus as the chief conernstone (Ephesians 2:19-22) and after the Apostles prophecy was done away with – it ceased. (1 Corinthians 13) Please read this article: Are Prophets for Today or has Prophecy Ceased?

Does Jesus mention who the church is built on? Absolutely BY NAME:

Jesus Christ actually names his Apostles by person, who are the ones who were to establish the church and do miracles.

Matthew 10:1-8

1 Jesus called his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits so they could cast them out and heal every kind of disease and sickness.
2 Now these are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (called Peter), and Andrew his brother; James son of Zebedee and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him
.
5 Jesus sent out these twelve, instructing them as follows: “Do not go to Gentile regions and do not enter any Samaritan town.
6 Go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near!’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.ely ye have received, freely give.

Then Jesus Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-43). Apostle Paul was to go and preach to the Gentiles.

Today’s Apostles are what the the Apostle Paul calls ‘super Apostles’ they want to be Apostles but they can’t be. ‘Chiefest Apostles’ or “Super-apostles” is probably the sarcastic title Paul gave to the false apostles who were troubling the Corinthian Church. Perhaps it was even a name they had taken for themselves, like C. Peter Wagner from the NAR who calls himself ‘Apostolic Ambassador’.

2 Corinthians 11:1-6

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

As you can see false Apostles is not a new thing, the troubled the church 2000+ years ago.

So, listen to what the bible says not what some ‘super Apostle’ wannabe Apostle tells you.

We do not need apostles living on earth today any more than we need Jesus living on earth today!

Apostolic cesession is part of the Catholic church, they claimed the Apostle Peter as the first Pope. The Roman Catholic church who hijacked Peter’s name and called St Peter’s church after him, is not the Apostle Peter but Simon Peter Magus the magician.

These “Pentecostal” churches today are tentacles of the Roman Catholic church with it’s apostolic succession; with their apostles and prophets giving us NEW Revelation that is no where to be found in scripture. At Boschoff et al, take a verse and create a whole new doctrine around one verse. That is not how you study and read the bible.

Please read this article: False Foundation of Five-Fold Ministry

Every Tom, Dick and Harry, Sally and Mary wants to be an apostle or prophet…they puff themselves up! If you are not speaking in tongues, trying to healing someone, or claimed to be a self appointed apostle or prophet because of some or another made up ‘mantle’ that now covers you then there is something supposedly wrong with you? Well I say this, “there is something wrong with you if you think you are an apostle or prophet, because Jesus Christ Himself named the REAL ones by name – if your name is not in the Bible, then you are not an apostle/prophet.” End of story.

Q2. Are speaking in tongues for people today and is it always a heavenly language or can it mean something else?

Please read https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/07/18/speaking-in-tongues/ and https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/06/23/the-biblical-holy-spirit-vs-the-false-unholy-spirit-of-fire/ And PLEASE read all comments under both articles, please, please, please…

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That ‘perfection’ has come with the finished cannon of the Bible and thus prophecies (foretelling the future) and tongues have now ceased. The Apostles and Prophets laid the foundations for us – we have the Word of God. We only need preachers and teachers – the Holy Spirit in each born again individual teaches us and leads us into all truth as well.

Q3) I believe im saved but I still continue in my sins that ive been in since before becoming born again. i know that its impossible me not to sin, however how can i know for sure from scriptures that i am saved?

Only scripture can help you understand; this is from our Statement of Faith:

A Christian’s Walk
– By reason of Christ’s victory over sin and of His indwelling Spirit, all of the saved may and should experience deliverance from the power of sin by obedience to Romans 6:11.
– We deny that man’s sinful nature is ever eradicated during this life.
– As saints and members of the true Church we are to maintain a Christ-honoring testimony, separate from all forms of worldliness and apostasy, and to demonstrate obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ and love to all men.
– Rom 6:6-14; Gal 5:16-25; Rom 8:37; 2 Cor 2:14; 10:2-5; Rom 12:1,2,9; II Cor 6:14-18; Eph 5:11; I Tim 6:20,21; Rom 6:13‭-‬14

Phewww that was a long comment… but packed full of the gospel truth  :hi5:

Indeed! You made it crystal clear from Scripture that today’s so-called apostles are charlatans and liars (2 Cor 11:13-15).

Johan

CRC’s annual conference, Dreamweek, is currently on in the Bloemfontein and Pretoria churches.

One of the guest speakers is Marcus Lamb from Daystar Television broadcasting network..
I listened to his one sermon and he said that the Lord has given him a message for CRC and then he proceeded to read the message which he had saved to his cellphone for the congregation. I just feel like reading something word for word and saying “thus sayeth the Lord” is very dangerous.

Furthermore he stated that he once went into a coma for two hours in which he went to heaven (WARNING SIGNS!)

Lamb also proudly proclaimed that Daystar is going to gift CRC R1.5m for their Johannesburg church building project.

After listening to this sermon, I can’t believe that Boshoff, who I used to hold at high esteem, allowed Lamb to preach at his conference. But it’s all making more and more sense.

Other speakers at the conference include:
Charles Nieman
Tommy Barnett
Charlotte Gambill
John Bevere
John Hannah

Tom (Discerning the World)

Thanks John.

Here’s an interesting video you may like to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Vjs2qZIn4

Stephan

This is the worst website if I have ever come across… filled with slander, offence and hate. I can only pray that your eyes will open to the truth, before your comments mislead more people.

“So let’s stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.”
Romans 14:13 NLT

Deborah (Discerning the World)

And then Stephan comes to join in to slander us.

Tell us Stephan, can you quote us please where comments are filled with slander, offence and hate?

Just thought I’d let you know that Rom 14:13-14 is with regards to drinking and eating food and Jews and Gentiles judging one another.

Rom 14:13-14 (KJV)
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. (1Cor 10:32) 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (Acts 10:15; 1Cor 8:4; 1Tim 4:4;)

1Cor 10:31-32 (KJV)
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Don’t take offence to this, but I hope you don’t listen to At Boschoff and believe everything he says like you expected me too believe your comment as you misquote scripture from the bible. Did you notice I went to check the verse you quoted to me to see if were indeed the true, and low and behold it wasn’t. Don’t get angry, let this be a learning lesson. TEST ALL THINGS, including At Boschoff who you follow religiously.

Stephan

Help nie om met julle te redeneer nie. Elkeen gaan eendag account moet gee vir sy lewe en dis jou saak dan. Maar ek gaan nie eenkant staan en vir Pastoor At stenig nie. Gaan kyk na die fruits en hoeveel mense se lewens verander is deur CRC. Kom gerus vandag saam na die diens en kom sien sy hart vir siele en die liefde wat ons vir mekaar het. Jy kan weer reply met ‘n opstel, dis irrelevant, ek en die honderde duisende ander lidmate wêreldwyd is dan seker almal verkeerd…

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Stephan

You said “Help nie om met julle te redeneer nie.”

We are not arguing, we are debating. You came here to accuse us of ‘slander, offence and hate’ and you quote a scripture about food. So you can imagine why I am confused, anyone would be who actually reads their bible. So let’s talk shall we.  :smile:

I ask you again Stephan, can you quote us please where comments are filled with slander, offence and hate? You didn’t answer, please I would like an answer. You can’t accuse someone without proof/evidence.

You said “Jy kan weer reply met ‘n opstel, dis irrelevant”

Yes I can see the bible means nothing to you, that’s why no matter what I say it will be irrelevant in your eyes, you will stand with At Boshoff and “all his power and signs and lying wonders” (bad fruit that looks like good fruit) and because you think the bible is not important to TEST THE SPIRITS (1 John 4:1-4) you can’t tell the difference between good and bad fruit (from a thorn tree)

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You said “Gaan kyk na die fruits en hoeveel mense se lewens verander is deur CRC”

Do you love the truth, or do you love signs and wonders?

Here is a simple question, can you answer it: The Roman Catholic church feeds the poor, they stand against abortion, they stand for the family unit, they have drug treatment programs, etc and millions of lives have been changed for what looks like the better. Is this good fruit or bad fruit Stephan?

You said “ek en die honderde duisende ander lidmate wêreldwyd is dan seker almal verkeerd…”

The Roman Catholic church has ‎1.299 billion members as of 2016. Look at all those people, are they wrong? Based on your reasoning that ‘number of members’ = ‘truth’, can so many people be wrong?

Robbie

Stephan, – Ware Evangelie gesentreerde kerke word gewaarsku deur die skrif om valse leer en leering teen te staan. Titus 1:15 – 16.
Kennis van wat die evangelie leer oor verskeie onderwerpe is die voorkomende “middel” wat ‘n gelowige in staat stel om valse leer te erken en teen te staan. Die ware aangryping van hierdie “middel” lei nie net tot kennis van die evangelie nie maar ook ware “discernment” (onderskeiding) wat vloei uit opregte reddende geloof.
Ek weet nie wat jou posisie in die kerk is nie. Die feit is dat ELKE ware gelowige verantwoordelik is om homself toe te rus met die waarheid sodat hy valsheid onmiddelik ooglopend sal herken.
Jy het genoeg tyd om dit wat At doen en se te vergelyk met Skrif… soos die Bybel ‘n goeie Berean beveel… hou op om AT te betaal om vir jou te interpreteer en lees self.

JHRB

Volksblad artikel van Dana Snyman: PASTOOR AT IS ‘n WARE BLESSING VIR HIERDIE LAND: “Vir Pastoor At gaan dit oor sukses. Success. Wealth. Health. Happiness. Dis nie n kerk vir losers nie. Dit is ‘n kerk vir wenners. Mense moet nie met hulle Ghandi-stories by hom kom nie, sê Ben [Dana Snyman]”
Hy sluit af: “Die armes moet besef die oplossing lê in hulself. Dit gaan oor die power of positive thinking. Dink positief. Glo in jouself. Dit is jou eie skuld as jy arm is. You must see yourself in a prosperous condition. Visualiseer jou sukses. Sit daar in jou shack en sien jouself in ‘n mansion bly en met die nuwe Porsche Panamera ry. Just do it.”
“Dit is amper weer Desember, en hy en Estie gaan weer in Europa ski, sê Ben. Wat ‘n blessing! Nêrens voel hy nader aan God as op die Alpe se ski slopes nie. Dit was ‘n tawwe jaar. Hulle moes mense by die werk retrench sodat die besigheid kon bly groei.”
 :grin: So dit is die geheim: Jouself…. niks van God nie…. God stel nie belang in losers nie. Teologie is te ingewikkeld vir die gewone mens om te verstaan. Mass-hysteria is makliker om mense te bereik deur doef-doef musiek om die gees af te beveel en die mense te beset (dit is defnitief nie die Heilige Gees nie}

Ek dink die cult glo dat hoe meer mense hulle na die kerk lok, hoe meer suksesvol lyk hulle. Getalle is crucial. en dit is maklik om hulle te hou want nie nagklub vibe is extended (vanaf die vorige nag) want hulle kan god sien (At Boshoff). En hy buit dit uit. Die jong mense is leier-loos… en At Boshoff het leier eienskappe.

Ek bid dat mense se oë oopgaan.

JHRB

 :unhappy:
Jammer, ek die “grin” icon gebruik, want hierdie is regtig nie n “laughing matter” nie. Mense word mislei en ek bid dat hulle oë moet oopgaan.

Tom (Discerning the World)

Dis tog so jammer dat Jesus Christus nie in At Boshoff se kerk is nie. Ek is seker dat as Hy ‘n lidmaat van sy kerk was, sou Hy beslis geweet het hoe om armoede met positiewe denke (shamanisme) van die aardbol af uit te wis. Instede daarvan sê Hy ‘n onbesonne ding soos, “Want die armes het julle altyd by julle, en wanneer julle wil, kan julle aan hulle goed doen; maar My het julle nie altyd nie. (Markus 14:7).

Hulle is skandvlekke in julle liefdemaaltye, wat sonder vrees saam fees hou en hulleself voer, waterlose wolke deur winde rondgedrywe, bome in die nasomer, wat sonder vrugte is, twee maal gestorwe, ontworteld; woeste golwe van die see wat hulle eie skandes laat opskuim, dwaalsterre vir wie die donkerheid van die duisternis vir ewig bewaar word.
(Judas 1:12-13)

Mario

Hi all, I too was in CRC Cape town and played guitar and sang in a homecell in Milnerton Ridge after the church i attended and played as ” worship leader in Brooklyn Cape Town closed down due to lack of funding. I went to a number of churches eg Edge Church, His people and a few others. I spent about months at CRC In Montague gardens and was painfully disillusioned by the consistent preaching for money this was in around 2008 when a lot of people were retrenched any way, the pastor of that church if i remember correctly was Aiden and his personal testimony was all about money and they always had this big videos made by very talented young people called the tithing message. (This in itself is an old testament twisted doctrine made to try and fit into the new testament with the B.S of melchedisecek), My home cell leader came to me and said i must give my name in to be a permanent member of this church to which i replied that i am free in Jesus Christ and i do not have to belong to a particular person/ organiszation. Around that time there were many people being retrenched and Aiden said in his preaching “you people who are being retrenched must remember that 10% of your gross pay out belongs to the church and there is no recession in heaven, that is exactly his words. Wow the arrogance the greed,the self centeredness, the unfeeling-ness is unbelievable. So when i was asked again to sign on is refused and said that if the preacher preaches one more time i would be out of there not long after that the home cell leader and his wife who played keyboard with me also left for the same reason. To cut a long story short im not here to fight with Gods Church but it has come to my understanding from the Word and what i see happening around me that there are two churches in this world (The bible refers to them as women) The one is very loud, agressive, proud, full of all kinds of witchcraft, distorted false doctrine with fake miracles and rides the beast of this world with a golden cup full of the blood of the saints shes been at work from the time that adam and eve sinned by wanting to be equal to god, when cain killed abel because his works were considered righteous by Almighty God, we see this thread through out the bible, the pharicees the saducees, who killed Jesus to the modern day pharicees i.e the pastors, reverends, fathers, bishops, and all other exalted man made title that men who are led by the spirit of darkness are called by as they try and stand between the child of God and Jesus (Paul refers to them as Antichrist even from his day) But many prefer this as they do not want to see God and have a direct relationship with him just as the Isrealites didnt want to meet with Almighty God but rather said to Moses they will rather hear second hand from him and so it is the same today we rather want rules and a pastor to stand between us and God and so history repeats itself. I listened to a preaching of a pastor who runs a church called Superman * who is an offshoot of a Nigerian church called Christs Embassy, he said in his arrogance ” i dont want a god who cant help me in my time of need, I dont want a god who cant, i don”t want a god who cant bless me in this world with health, wealth and prosperity and everyone naturally said amen amen amen, like zombies. So they invented a new Jesus who doesn’t bless you with life in abundance meaning eternal life but abundance of the things and “bling” of this world. So they have invented a new Jesus a figment of their imagination which and worship it similar to the golden calf the Israelites made and then worshiped. But this is not only these people CRC, Hillsongs all this crap came out of america in the 60’s and 70’s and have been added to by later pastors in other countries so that error is piled on error but the error is extremely captivating as it directly appeals to the flesh. This is why many young people and older people follow this but it is the spirit of this world and Not the spirit of God. So just as there is a false women the devil has provided us with a spirit of this world which looks like light but its end is death ( and i think why Jesus said if the light in you is darkness how dense a darkness) and in Revelation it talks about the three unclean frogs.

At the end of the day Gods people need to discern these things and going to Church and singing wonderful new songs is not worshiping in spirit and truth and using tongues to get your own will done on this planet is akin to which craft you are free to make your own decisions so choose wisely and the only wise person i have ever come across so far is Jesus compared to him me and every one else are losers and thats who i am. To the religious saved people out there who occupy a seat in a church every sunday this i am not fighting against christianity as christianaty is only a word but i am fighting and trying to understand the truth and so far just as they say you won’t find justice or truth in a court of law similarly you are very unlikely to find the truth in that thing called a church as it has been taken over by Satan in around 200years after Jesus was crucified and there is no competition whether it be Allah, mohammad, lucifer, Buddah, whatever All will bow the knee before Jesus Christ the king of kings and the lord of lords to the glory of God the Father.

michael

Michael wrote:

100% guaranteed you will delete this also but what ever.

WOW! You must be a prophet. Your post has been DELETED.

John Vicente

Good day,
I just immigrated to Coimbra, Portugal. Could someone point me in the right direction for fellowship ?

CRCcrossroad

Deborah (Discerning the World)

I had just finished reading the article and about half of the comments when I decided to reach out..

I joined CRC a couple of months ago and the journey kicked off with a lot of excitement, but as my “spirutual journey” progressed a lot of questions arose. Some things didn’t sit well in terms of their practices and theology and I grew more uneasy by the day. Eventually I came to the conclusion that I have a rebellious spirit and that’s why I have a problem with submitting to their leadership. Every question or offense that arose towards CRC, its teachers, preachers and practices I suppressed with everything in me because I thought I’m the only one that felt that way and genuinely thought I was wrong.

I am active in my Homecell, attempted to serve in various of the available ministries and also enrolled in their bible school.
At a stage I found myself frustrated, drained and ultimately a bit lost. I couldn’t understand this, I’m keeping myself busy with the things of the Lord, aren’t I?

I suddenly realised that I haven’t conducted any form of biblical self study in months! So I retreated back to the Word and started reading as if my life depended on it.
See, I had been saved radically a month prior to signing membership, and Scripture had been my only source during that period.
As I rekindled my bible study, a lot of convictions surfaced. As God confronted each of my personal convictions, this process entailed being crushed and stripped of my selfish motivations (both painful and liberating), an alarmingly uneasy dejavu, with additional clarity of biblical contradictions was apparent.
I noticed preaching styles and teachings revolving around “man-esteemed” views/opinions instead of a God-centered Word, unhealthy upliftment and magnification of the senior pastors. The bit of scripture that is used is used out of context for the Christian’s benefit.
Sin is hardly ever discussed and repentance thereof is watered down.
This scared me. I stopped jumping to my feet and clapping / amen-ing in affirmation at the end of every statement. I stopped inviting people to church. I stopped sharing “CRC” motivation on social media.

I felt so guilty because I love the Body of Christ, which includes some of the people in this movement. I started researching the “prosperity movement”, ultimately how I stumbled upon this article, in order to confront and clarify the concerns raised by Scripture.

One has to understand that not everything that comes out of CRC’s ministry is bad, a lot of good things came and still comes from this ministry. Not everything preached contradicts the Bible, but their theology as a whole is offbase and brittle. That makes their movement unbiblical and thus dangerous. They are one of the most influencial churches of our time after the Vatican.

I’m technically still part of this church. I genuinely care for and love these people and I do believe some of them are truly saved.

Do I stay and share the true gospel?
Do I pick a trusted few, enlighten them and run?

The loyalty to the authority in that place is intensely intimidating. If you cause division you’re compared to cancer.

Still, Jesus is both the focus and the standard. Not by might nor power, but by His Holy Spirit.

Bless you all.

Tom (Discerning the World)

CRCcrossroad

It is clear that God has spoken to you through his Word to warn you against the church you are still attending. The ball is in your court now and you must decide to either obey or disobey God. You wrote:

One has to understand that not everything that comes out of CRC’s ministry is bad, a lot of good things came and still comes from this ministry.

Jesus contradicts your view of the CRC church.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mat 7:15-20)

Bear in mind, He is not speaking about sin in general but false prophets and false teaching. You admitted that not all they preach contradicts the Bible. So too does the Whore of Babylon (the Roman Catholic Vatican) teach and preach things that do not contradict the Bible. That’s precisely why Paul says Satan knows how to transform himself into and angel of light and his ministers into ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

So, allow me to ask you. At Judgment Day, is God going to place the bad things of the CRC church into the one side of the scale and the good things into the other and say, “Well done good and faithful servant, your good fruits (preaching the unadulterated Word of God) outweighs your bad fruits (making your theology as a whole dangerous and brittle) and so, JAY, you have made it to heaven? (Proverbs 14:12).

You wrote in conclusion:

I’m technically still part of this church. I genuinely care for and love these people and I do believe some of them are truly saved.
Do I stay and share the true gospel?
Do I pick a trusted few, enlighten them and run?
The loyalty to the authority in that place is intensely intimidating. If you cause division you’re compared to cancer.
Still, Jesus is both the focus and the standard. Not by might nor power, but by His Holy Spirit.

You cannot and may not remain, not even technically, in the CRC church when God has spoken to you through his Word. I must also say, I detect fear and a technicality of being ashamed of sharing the Gospel in you because the “authority is so intensely intimidating.” I don’t care how intensely intimidating they are. If you don’t warn them, the blood of those who are being led astray is on your hands.

No, no, Jesus is NOT the focus and the standard in the CRC church. It is another Jesus, another spirit and another Gospel. Are you prepared to follow another Jesus?

CRCcrossroad

I’m definitely not planning on following the movement anymore. Scripture is the final authority for any true follower of Christ (which I promised to continually strive to be) and I am thankful that my eyes have been opened, but one does not simply abondon fellow brothers and sisters.

I asked what I asked because how does one make a U-turn with other followers. When I say good has come and is still coming from it, I am saying some people’s lives have genuinely been influenced for the better (fruits), I would be a liar to deny it – HOWEVER, it does not justify teaching and preaching a false gospel (very bad fruits) but this will be the main argument and obstacle in opening the eyes of those still in the system.

The loyalty to the authority is intimidating, not the authority. There are thousands of committed members in this revival.
When I say intimidating I don’t mean in terms of leaving, I mean in terms of confronting. Not saying I’m not going to (that’s what I meant with Jesus is the focus, not in CRC but in making a break from the movement)

I just want to know how without alienating them, otherwise the approach would be in vain and I might as well just go in silence.

Tom (Discerning the World)

As you so rightly said, “Scripture is the final authority for any true follower of Christ.” Now let’s see what Scripture says about your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who claim to follow Jesus. Remember, this is Jesus speaking and not I.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. (John 10:1-5).

OK, now let’s focus on the true followers of Christ who want to remain faithful to his Word. Jesus says they will flee (run away) from false teachers because they do not know the voice of strangers (will shun their teachings). Your duty is to warn those who, as you say, “have genuinely been influenced for the better (fruits),” through At Boshoff’s teaching. If that is so, then Jesus must have been delirious when He said his sheep will not listen to false teachers but will run away from them. Moreover, the apostle John wrote:

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6).

So, if you warn your brethren whom you say are saved, and they listen to you, they are indeed saved. However, if they do not heed your warnings, they are not of God (not saved). The spirit of truth obeys whilst the spirit of error disobeys. That’s how we discern between truth and error. Should they not listen to you, it will be best for you to go in silence. Please don’t fear alienation. Jesus said:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:34-39).

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Hi CRCcrossroad

You wrote:

The loyalty to the authority is intimidating, not the authority. There are thousands of committed members in this revival.

The fact that they are loyal to the authority proves that they are not saved, in the light of what Jesus says in John 10. Furthermore, it proves that is not a revival proper by a false revival. I wouldn’t remain if I were you. The atmosphere is demonic (1 Timothy 4:1).

CRCcrossroad

Thank you Tom.

Herewith a link that I found enlightening in terms of an NAR framework.

http://trulightradioxm.org.za/teachings/the-false-doctrine-of-the-new-apostolic-reformation-movement-nar/

John

Hmmm  :think: , Tom and Deborah: have you read some of the articles and teachings from the website that CRCcrossroad just recommended?

Tom (Discerning the World)
Deborah (Discerning the World)

Hi John

Ahh yes I see exactly what you mean. Unless you see something different, please tell us your findings. “Tru light radio xm” are anti-rapture, they are amillennial, preterist etc.

Also take a look at this article: 4 Gates to Heaven What a load of rubbish.

I think Pastor Dirk and his “Tru light radio xm” is Word of Faith.

So here we have Word of Faith exposing NAR, how funny is that… Word of Faith and NAR are both offshoots of the Roman Catholic church and are very much intermingled with one another…

John

Tom: Not the article linked to, some of the others like Deborah found.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Thanks John.

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