At Boshoff from CRC Church shows us how Pharisees went about ‘Honoring’ God

At BoshoffThe recent invitation to debate sent to Mr. At Boshoff by Dion Knoesen was as a result of the below notice sent out by CRC, to their members and undersigned by Mr. Boshoff.

This notice was dated 16 November 2010 with the Subject: “Honour God”

We wish to state the reason for the intended debate with Mr. Boshoff.  We hope to either persuade Mr. Boshoff to give heed to proper rendering of the Scriptures for his own benefit and also to benefit those who are under his shepherding.

1Ti 4:16    Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

On the CRC website it s mentioned that Mr. Boshoff studied at “A Bible College” for three years fulltime. Unfortunately no name is given to this Bible College.

In the last paragraph on this webpage the it says the following:

“He has been described as focussed, passionate and fervent in his hunger for the Word of God and explosive in his dynamic teaching of it. His positively dynamic and practical messages are equaled in their refreshing relevancy to their bold authenticity and doctrinal accuracy. “

When looking exegetically into his notice “Honour God” we have to question his “authenticity and doctrinal accuracy.”

For informative purposes the quoted Scriptures by Mr. Boshoff is discussed below in RED

As Paul wrote:

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;


Email sent out from CRC Church to it’s congregation:

 width=From: CRC Christian Church
Sent: 16 November 2010 01:00 PM

Honour God

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God.

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God.

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give.

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success.

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law.

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance[at]crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-xxx xxxx.

Be Blessed,

At Boshoff


A Critique on how to “Honor God” written by At Boshoff – Critique notes in red

“Money is the answer to all things.” Ecc 10:19 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:   It is utterly disappointing to notice that Eccl. 10:19 is cited and interpreted in the way At Boshoff has done so in his notice to the congregation at CRC.

When reading what King Solomon wrote in the book of Ecclesiastes the basic understanding and proper rendering of the Scripture quoted is in fact quite the opposite, as indicated here by Mr. Boshoff.

The passage in context from the first verse (In fact the first chapter of Ecclesiastes) has to do with what the foolish do and the evils resulting from their actions in this world, which also includes verse 10.

Solomon’s message is one of vanity to all that are under the sun, which includes “Money is the answer to all things” What Solomon actually means in writing this is that man’s trust in money which according to man answers all things, is vanity. Their trust and security should be in God and not in money.

It is vanity of fools who rely on their money for all things instead of God.

Psa 62:8  Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Psa 62:10  Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.

Psa 62:11  God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

Mar 10:24  And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:17  Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life

Why do so many pastors not put their faith in God but rather exploit the people, after all they are always accusing those who do not have money as being without faith – yet when they need the money they rely on the people instead of their faith??

The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.]

The two most important books in your life are the Bible and your cheque “book”. The Bible is the revelation of God’s love for us and our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Where is this revelation in the Bible, that our cheque book is the revelation of our love for God??

The revelation I find is that our love for the Lord Jesus, is to keep His commandments not the love of filthy lucre. Our love is manifested in our obedience to Him, our trust in Him alone not in mammon and riches.

There are only two important books and that is the Bible and having your name written in the Book of Life.]

In Joshua 7 we read about the only place where Israel failed when they crossed into the Promised Land. The only place where Israel suffered defeat because they tampered with the gold and silver (the devoted things) that belonged to God. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Ouch!!! First of all it was not Israel who “tampered with the gold and silver” but one man named Achan the son of Camri who had stolen some of the spoils of looted booty of Jericho. (This also had nothing to do with his own money, silver or gold or any of his personal belongings which is referred to here Mr. Boshoff in quoting Joshua 7 for gaining money from New Testament congregants.)

Yes, Israel as a corporate entity was punished as result of the theft by Achan, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the personal wealth individuals were given by God, which were then somehow to the interpretation of this part of Scripture withheld from God.

Firstly this was in disobedience to God, because God placed a ban on personal gain from the looted goods.

Secondly theft was the cause of the punishment – taking things not given to you by God.

Thirdly it was the covetousness of Achan that was addressed in the punishment. Covetousness is what God warns us against throughout the Scriptures.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

To be under the shepherding of someone who does not understand context and doctrine or does understand context and twists it out of context, is not promoted by Scripture:

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]

Your tithe is Holy to God. Lev 27:30. There are two principles that dominate throughout the Old and New Testament: First fruits get given first and; seed time and harvest. It is God’s purpose that should drive us to give. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Some more doctrines lacking regarding the tithe very applicable to the Old Testament. Using this one verse for the purpose of tithing is not sufficient and there were many tithing’s applicable not just one. To understand this tithe there were basically 4 types of tithing in the Old Testament ONLY

a) The tithe to the Levites. Deut.14: 27.

The Levites were the “government” of Israel and due to them not having a share in the land allocated to the rest of the tribes, those allocated land were to use of their produce to give to the Levites.

b) The tithe of the Levites to the Zadokites. Neh.10: 38.

Now this is where Malachi is used to place unnecessary burdens on believers today.

First of all, tithings were purely laws given in the Torah or Old Testament. So commanding and condemning people to tithe today by quoting Malachi 10, is basically going back to the Torah or the Law, putting congregants back under the law.

Secondly the Scriptures used below to state that Jesus endorses tithing are totally out of context with regard to tithing and God’s Word in fact it refers to this as works by the Pharisees to justify themselves, something God loathes. In Fact God says woe to them that tithe! – will explain when we discuss these passages.

Thirdly when Malachi 3:10 is read and understood in context it refers to the tithe in a) above, the tithe in Deut 14:27 which was received from the tribes and given to the Levites. The Levites in turn were to skim off a tithe from this tithe (Neh10:38) to give to the priests attending to temple duties. So it was the Levites who were robbing God not the people.

It is interesting when reading the “Works Of Josephus” the Sadducees were the rich of the day who were using the tithes to enrich themselves. Josephus admits to this as he himself was a Sadducee.

Historically it is proven that the Sadducees were extremely rich due to the financial contributions by ordinary people who were forced to pay tribute.

There is no new thing under the son. Today’s Sadducees and Pharisees apply the same rule. The flock enriches them as result of their own rendering and contortions of Scripture.

The clergy were robbing God of tithes not the people, hence the rebuke to them in Malachi 10.

Have any of the Malachi 10 promoters ever read the following to any of their congregations?

Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

Mic 3:11  The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

Mic 3:12  Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

The third type of tithe:

c) The tithe toward the annual Holy Days. Deut. 14: 22 – 26.

3 Times a year the Israelites were to attend Holy Feasts at Jerusalem and for this they needed to set aside a tithe of their harvests etc. If they were too far from Jerusalem they could sell the targeted tithed articles and turn it into money. This they would spend upon themselves and the Levites once they arrive in Jerusalem.

d) The tithe to the less fortunate. Deut.14: 28 – 29.

This is also a tithe to obviously assist the needy in the Old Testament.

Although a tithe in the New Testament is never mentioned in this regard there are many Scriptures which clearly say that the needy ought to be cared for.

When one searches for the word “Tithe” in the New Testament there are  two references one in Matt. 23:23 and the other in Luke 11:42 which notably is quoted by Mr. Boshoff and will be discussed.]

In Acts 5 we read about Ananias and Sapphira that financially stood in the way of God’s purpose and suffered great calamity. God does not curse you; your actions open your life to either failure or success. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Who is man that he is able to stand in the way of God’s purpose? Is God dependant on man?

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

It is agreeable that one’s actions open you to success or failure, but to use Acts 5 as yardstick for failure and success is totally out of context.

I know of many people struggling financially who humbly adores God and has extreme credence in the Lord Jesus, but who realize that their own actions caused their calamity. Those being poor and suffering financially in this life without rejecting the Lord Jesus who are willing to endure to the end will be first in the Kingdom.

Although there are certain quotations by the MHCC I do not fully agree with the MHCC renders the following understanding with regard to Ananias and Sapphira which I could not have worded better:

The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was, that they were ambitious of being thought eminent disciples, when they were not true disciples. Hypocrites may deny themselves, may forego their worldly advantage in one instance, with a prospect of finding their account in something else. They were covetous of the wealth of the world, and distrustful of God and his providence. They thought they might serve both God and mammon. They thought to deceive the apostles. The Spirit of God in Peter discerned the principle of unbelief reigning in the heart of Ananias. But whatever Satan might suggest, he could not have filled the heart of Ananias with this wickedness had he not been consenting. The falsehood was an attempt to deceive the Spirit of truth, who so manifestly spoke and acted by the apostles. The crime of Ananias was not his retaining part of the price of the land; he might have kept it all, had he pleased; but his endeavouring to impose upon the apostles with an awful lie, from a desire to make a vain show, joined with covetousness. But if we think to put a cheat upon God, we shall put a fatal cheat upon our own souls. How sad to see those relations who should quicken one another to that which is good, hardening one another in that which is evil! And this punishment was in reality mercy to vast numbers. It would cause strict self-examination, prayer, and dread of hypocrisy, covetousness, and vain-glory, and it should still do so. It would prevent the increase of false professors. Let us learn hence how hateful falsehood is to the God of truth, and not only shun a direct lie, but all advantages from the use of doubtful expressions, and double meaning in our speech.]

Does Jesus endorse tithing? Of course He does. In both Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42; Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing. When you tithe you shouldn’t even see that 10 percent. It’s God’s. Also we read in Heb 7 that tithing was before the law. It was a part of the Abrahamic covenant that still exists and is fulfilled in Jesus. He tithed to Malchizedek (high priest) 430 years before before Moses came with the law. (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Is Mr. Boshoff rightfully dividing the Word here?

To understand Matthew 23:23 effectively one needs to read from verse 1!

These were the Words of the Lord Jesus Himself. The Lord Jesus was warning against the Pharisees and rebuked them for putting credence or weight to their tithes. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Lord Jesus most certainly does not say that tithing is the most basic thing in this Scripture. In fact He says woe to those that tithe and ignore the important things that God wants. The Lord Jesus in fact says that it is NOT the most basic thing. He says the “weightier” matters are more basic than the tithe.

Luke 11:42 Again out of context and basically the same rebuke goes out to the Pharisees who promoted and relied on tithing as the basic thing at the time of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I do not find: “Jesus says that tithing should be the most basic thing” What I do find is another rebuke to the Pharisees and Scribes who felt very secure in basic tithing: Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! For ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

What I have found in CRC when I used to go there was that they were promoting security in tithing, but the more important and weightier matters such as keeping the Lords commandments in our love for Him, I personally never heard in any sermon by Mr. Boshoff.

Is this not precisely why the Lord Jesus in His Word rebukes the Pharisees?

In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 the focus is more on the “weightier” matters than the tithe.

A very repetitive part of Scripture used by Mr. Boshoff is Hebrews 7

Gen: 14:18: And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the highest God.

Gen: 14:19: And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

Gen: 14:20: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand.  And he gave him tithes of all.

This is to “prove” that tithing was established before the time of Moses, the Torah or law and that tithes have to be given to the priest. To find out what the Melchizedek tithe meant one has to not only read this passage, but also read on to verses 22 & 23.

From verse 18 – 20 it is clear that this was not Abraham’s belongings which were tithed, but rather the booty or loot he had gathered from conquering the enemy.

Gen:14:22: And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen: 14:23: That I will not take from a thread even to a shoe latchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

Although he gave away 10% of the booty, he stated that he did not even want any of it, because it was not his.

It is also interesting to note that this was a ONCE OFF event, which never took place again.

Ninety percent and more of Scripture quoted for the purposes of pleading for tithes are taken out of context today. God says let few be teachers, because those teachers teaching the flock will be held accountable for what they teach.

A reminder: The Bible does not teach that money should not be used to preach the Gospel and to support brethren (not organisations) in the body of Christ – it is very obvious that mammon should be befriended for this purpose.

But to contort Scripture in this manner shows doctrinal ignorance – hopefully – that rather done so on purpose.

James:3:1: My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.]

Your allegiance, your tithe, should be given to the church where you are planted. Mal 3 speaks about the coming of Jesus and actually the Holy Spirit. In this we see that we should bring the tithe to the “storehouse” which is your church. Give to God what is God’s. It is God who should be honoured first because He is the source of all your income. Matt 22:17-21 (Undersigned by At Boshoff)

[Note:  Reading Mal 10 from verse 1 rather suggests that the audience addressed by God were the priests as already discussed. The “storehouse” is definitely not the New Testament church. The New Testament church is the bride of Christ and not a building built with brick and mortar.]

We work to build the kingdom of God, we shouldn’t work to meet our own needs. People can frustrate the work of God by withholding resources. Let’s evaluate ourselves and rectify places where maybe we’ve neglected to honour God with our finances. If you start today it is never too late.

[Note:  The Lord Jesus calls for heed to doctrine rather than finances and I do hope that Mr. Boshoff would rather be obedient to the Lord in the weightier matters.]

This past week-end we saw 470 people giving their lives to Jesus. We are here to possess the Promised Land. Thank you to every one of you for working hard throughout the year and inviting your world to CRC.

[Note:  Figures do not impress God. One such an example is: Exo 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The quote Mr. Boshoff uses in Matthew 23 was discussed already and to conclude, using this verse as a basis for endorsing tithing is basically in support of what the Pharisees promoted – That Mr. Boshoff is teaching here and to the congregation is absolutely the same what the Pharisees were doing.

What is important however and of grave concern, are the proselytes made by CRC. This is also found in Matthew 23 the chapter in which the verse occurs that Mr. Boshoff uses to preach the diametric opposite to what the Lord Jesus says in this chapter: Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16  Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?]

We had a fantastic harvest event in Cape Town last week. We saw the entire auditorium filled to the max. Ps. Aidan and Sharon are doing a great work in that city. I believe many good things are still heading our way in Cape Town.

[Note:  I suppose it is not worth mentioning all those pastors and lay persons who have left CRC and would like to see Mr. Boshoff repent of his ways.]

They have begun to lay the foundations for the Pretoria Building Project. We are so excited to see how things come together as we follow the instructions of God. As we are now in the time when we have to pay the contractors large sums of money every month, I urge you to give the money you pledged or whatever extra the Holy Spirit lays on your heart.

If you still want to contribute please e-mail finance@crc.org.za

The Kids’ Party is only a week away. Please take part in this as we are going
to make the day special for over 15 000 underprivileged children. If you would like to volunteer or make a donation please contact 051-525 2883.

[Note:  It is agreeable that feeding under privileged Children is a very good work, yet the concern remains what these poor children are being fed spiritually when such doctrine as discussed here is being preached.

Hitler once said that if the hearts of the children are won, the next generation will be won.

It is also fact the “Church” of Rome has built a multitude of schools and hospitals and proclaims ex-Cathedra that winning the minds of children before age 7 will ensure that they will be won permanently for the Mother “Church”.  I see the same happening at CRC so feeding children is an outward appearance coaxing them into a greater deception of being taught wrong doctrine

Remember what James wrote; if the correct faith is dead the works mean nothing.

It is the correct doctrine that will ensure the correct faith – this is why the works may be more detrimental to the children in the longer term.]

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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Ash

Quick question, are you a Calvinist? because you said

“One thing I have learnt in my walk with the Lord is that He is sovereign in ALL things –even the false doctrines”

Are you saying that God is the creator and instigator of false teaching?

Oh I see Tom asked you the same question with a bit more information and scripture to go with it.

Ash

Dear Brother Tom and Sister Deborah

Concerning this comment: ” I think you should take your own advice and not call us out for supposedly not speaking in love ok?”

Note: I have not started a website pointing a finger at discerningtheworld.com but have left a comment on your own website property.

None of us are righteous and we all fall short but it is the gift of Grace through faith in Jesus Christ that keeps us all alive. His Grace is enough for me, for you and even those you call out!

Regarding scriptures related to names of false teachers and teachings, I do not put myself on the same level as the Lord Jesus Christ and any of the other Apostles as they laid the foundation with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone and had every right to call out the false. I am learning everyday but know I will only know in part in this lifetime.

We are called to test the spirits but not to wage war as the world does. In the very chapter where John speaks about testing the spirits we also learn this: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”

Holy Spirit is more than capable of leading every believer into truth and away from error if they sincerely desire truth. He does not need my legs or hands or voice for He alone will do it in Perfect Love.

Concerning this comment:

“So Ash, what I would like to suggest to you, is that you follow in the footsteps of Satan who is a murderer and the father of all lies (John 8:44) and preach false doctrine and lies so that people may find the truth in Jesus who is the Truth. That way, God will one day say to you, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: Your lies, deceit, cunning and craftiness have brought millions of souls to my Son. Please accept my humble thanks and here’s sommer a reward and a crown for your brilliant efforts.”

Bully for you, Ash. Keep up the good work. Preach lies and deceit in season and out of season so that sinners may find the truth.”

What’s sad about the above comment is that it is ended by you saying: “And by the way, Ash, don’t let this disturb you because it was spoken in pure love for you and your soul.”

Let your comment about pure love be a testimony before God of your Love to your Brother!

Regarding God’s sovereignty even in the false doctrine: His ways and thought are above my own and I will NEVER try and use my restricted human mind, rationale, logic or even my knowledge of scripture to comprehend God’s ways and manifold wisdom.

The man who persecuted the early Church God used mightily for His Glory and none of Israel would have ever figured that out.

God prepared the Lamb before the foundation of the world so Adam’s fall and everything that follows is of no surprise to God.

It is false doctrine which lead me personally on a search for truth, and this by the Grace of God — that is a personal testimony not from head knowledge but experience.

Am I Calvinist?

All am is a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and it is in Him that I trust. He is the Word of Truth!

May the Love of Christ be your firm Foundation!

God Bless!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Ash

Sorry your comment landed in our SPAM section I had to move it out.

Right let’s start again on a different foot shall we :)

You said “Regarding God’s sovereignty even in the false doctrine: His ways and thought are above my own and I will NEVER try and use my restricted human mind, rationale, logic or even my knowledge of scripture to comprehend God’s ways and manifold wisdom.

The man who persecuted the early Church God used mightily for His Glory and none of Israel would have ever figured that out.

God prepared the Lamb before the foundation of the world so Adam’s fall and everything that follows is of no surprise to God.”

There is a very big difference between God knowing everything vs Him ordaining everything including the evils of this world. Do you agree or not?

Do you believe we have free will?

Calvinist’s are masters when it comes to ‘God’s Sovereignty’ and when ever they can’t explain something they say, “oh but it’s a mystery a paradox, these things we can never know because we are just little people and God is like super sovereign and we have no free will” And because of that “I will NEVER try and use my restricted human mind, rationale, logic or even my knowledge of scripture to comprehend God’s ways and manifold wisdom”

Tell me Ash, why did God give us HIS WORD? For fun? or so that we can KNOW the Truth?

The thing is Ash, God does tells us in his Word that if you don’t read and study it to find yourself approved 2 Timothy 2:15 then how are you going to know? Right? Wrong?

You said “that is a personal testimony not from head knowledge but experience.”

You can’t use experience to say you know the Word of God, reading and studying and head knowledge is how you get to know Jesus Christ because He is the Word. Am I right or wrong?

Ash

[Deleted] Deborah said: I am deleting your comment because you don’t want to answer my questions, you just want to ‘speak love’. You said “However, doctrinal differences, denominations and a lack of understanding of what the Church actually is has caused more division and we as a Church are seeing as the hypocrites of the world because we can’t even come into agreement among ourselves.”

This is what the bible says about division. “For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Corinthians 11:18-19)

If you read your bible Ash and gained some head knowledge you would know this, but you know nothing. All you can do is express a so calledlove‘ that is contrary to what the Bible preaches. We are to love our neighbour (Matthew 22:39) how? By preaching the TRUTH to them. “2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2) < -- That is love Ash. I asked you once how you know who is your enemy is to pray for if you don't know what is sound doctrine and what is false teaching and you never answered. The Holy Spirit when He comes to abide in you LEADS YOU INTO ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) You say He does not. You say we only know in part. Oh Ash, if you understood that verse properly you would know that that was the Apostles speaking who were been given prophecy part here and part there to write the bible, then it all came together and the bible was complete - WE KNOW know it ALL, and the Holy Spirit tells us ALL truth - He does not tell one Christian that and another that so that there will be division within His Bride. He leads ALL born again Christians into the truth. There is TRUE Christian unity within the Bride of Christ as we speak with ONE voice. "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."(Romans 15:6) Don't you what to know the truth? I really pray that your eyes are opened to the truth that being what is said in the Word of Godand and not what you feel is right when it's in fact wrong.

Sick of it

Ah, I see the big guns had to be brought in again: Rodney H-B is back in the house!! With his “Spirit of Generosity” message, I’m sure CRC will be helped to get through this dry spell they may be experiencing, especially seeing there are a few more multi-million rand building projects which need to be funded this year. Good plan, At! Get the people feelin’ “loosed”. Released emotions, released wallets, you know…

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Sick of it

Indeed, it makes one sick hearing all those lies over and over again. Nevertheless, the Bible says something very important.

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. (Deu 13:1-5)

Some may argue that At Boshoff and Rodney Howard-Brown are not leading others astray by saying, “Let us go after other gods . . .” because they are preaching Jesus. Well, Paul warns against another Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel. (2 Cor 11:4). By the way, Angus Buchan has the greatest respect for Rodney Howard-Brown. “Birds of a feather flock together.

Faceless

Aaah good to see there are people exposing CRC.
Went there for about 2 months, only thing i heard was: money, more money, ow and please give us your money… Never heard so much false teaching in my life. Picking random verses out of context, slapping it all together and voila, a whole new gospel created… To top it all of. Rodney Howerd Brown came and preach. Funny guy but o dear, talk about a wolf. After him preaching on money ofcourse… he started his “slaying in the spirit” and getting people “drunk on the new wine” and “holy laughter” etc this went on for atleast 1 hour… What a complete and utter obamination.

In short that was my last time at CRC. I went against it and basicly was called a jew that is creating devision. And i had a spirit of rebellion etc.
Aah well pray that God opens their eyes. Sad to see so many being decieved.

God bless.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

faceless,

And to think that Angus Buchan regards Rodney Howard-Brown as a man of God. What does the Bible say?

2 Jn 1:9-11
(9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Listen to Angus Buchan, while taking off his hat in reverence to Howard-Brown, and saying to him, “Keep up the GOOD work and keep on filling people with fire (fire of hell)

Isa 5:20
(20)  Woe unto them that call evil (strange fire) good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Watch this.

Like Rodney Howard Brown, Angus Buchan preaches another Gospel of another spirit and another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:8-9). Angus is misleading thousands into hell. He desperately needs to repent of his evil.

Faceless

I am not familiar with Angus Buchan. But yes if he supports Rodney Howard Brown, then he is from the same den of wolfs.
Alot of false teachers these days, getting confused myself…. dont even know if i should go to church and if so which church? Who teaches the truth these days. Well guess God wasnt lying when he said narrow is the way and “few” that find it. Best bet these days is a lonely walk i guess.
Pray that God gives us all the strength to continue, its not easy at all.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Faceless,

Welcome to the club. I too don’t know which church to attend. However, bear this mind when looking for a church.

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
(Deu 13:1-9)

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Hi Faceless, welcome to the club. I too don;t know which church to attend. However, bear the following in mind when looking for a church to attend

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deu 13:1-9)

The name of the other Gods of today is JESUS.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Co 11:4)

CL

Hi, Tom and Deb, may I please have your emails? I would like to chat a bit please. I have a very interesting testimony but I would prefer to speak in private please

Deborah (Discerning the World)

CL

Sorry for late reply… to contact us please use discerningtheworld_dtp@gmail.com Please delete the part that says ‘_dtp’ within the first part of the email address as this is our anti-spam control. If you don’t delete this part I will not receive your email. It will bounce back to you.

Sick of it

So sick and tired of hearing you preach about the poor, At Boshoff. Have you not seen how the nation feels about smooth-talking politicians whose lifestyles contradict them at every turn?? You fall into the same category, “brother.” And more so – because you peddle the Gospel of Jesus. Shame on you.

Awake

Just wondering what people think about women who have had multiple breast augmentations while “serving in the ministry” (at what cost?) and whose augmentations are so noticeable as to be in-your-face, so to speak, being in pastoral and counselling positions???

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Awake

Well for one I think it’s shocking. I can just imagine who you are speaking about…

God'slove

if you dont want to give your money in church then don’t. stop criticizing and focus on God and his purpose for you and mostly read the bible.

God'slove

what is in it for you to criticize soo much!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear God’s love

If you read your bible as you say you do, you would know…
(1 John 4:1) “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

If you read your bible as you say you do, you would know…
(2 Timothy 4:2) “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”

If you read your bible as you say you do, you would know that it is in fact biblical to judge. The Bible commands us to judge fellow Christians teachings and their fruit. Those in the church we are to judge according to the Word of God. We are also commanded to judge/test their teachings/doctrine to make sure it is correct and that it ties up with scripture.

As Christian we JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (Amplified Bible)
“21But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.”

Matthew 7:15-20 (Amplified Bible)
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 (Amplified Bible)
12What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment [passing censuring sentence on them as the facts require]?
13God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside. Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church].

1 Corinthians 14:29 (Amplified Bible)
29 So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said.

John 7:24 (Amplified Bible)
24Be honest in your judgment and do not decide at a glance (superficially and by appearances); but judge fairly and righteously.

Titus 1:9-16 (Amplified Bible)
9He must hold fast to the sure and trustworthy Word of God as he was taught it, so that he may be able both to give stimulating instruction and encouragement in sound (wholesome) doctrine and to refute and convict those who contradict and oppose it [showing the wayward their error].
10For there are many disorderly and unruly men who are idle (vain, empty) and misleading talkers and self-deceivers and deceivers of others. [This is true] especially of those of the circumcision party [who have come over from Judaism].
11Their mouths must be stopped, for they are mentally distressing and subverting whole families by teaching what they ought not to teach, for the purpose of getting base advantage and disreputable gain.
12One of their [very] number, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, hurtful beasts, idle and lazy gluttons.
13And this account of them is [really] true. Because it is [true], rebuke them sharply [deal sternly, even severely with them], so that they may be sound in the faith and free from error,
14[And may show their soundness by] ceasing to give attention to Jewish myths and fables or to rules [laid down] by [mere] men who reject and turn their backs on the Truth.
15To the pure [in heart and conscience] all things are pure, but to the defiled and corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are defiled and polluted.
16They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

AMEN!

Awake

Verbatim quote from At at his morning service today: “The Holy Spirit comes… to see the size of my offering”. Lovely stuff!

Awake

He’s “changing the time of the Bloemfontein North extension service”, so that he can be “face to face” with them. Seems some of them get upset that he’s never there and they have to watch him on the screens every Sunday, lol! That’s right, Alexander the Great: your “empire” is going to crumble as soon as you’re gone. You haven’t turned the people to Jesus to depend on Him; you’ve called them to a personality cult, where they can have a party every end-of-the-week. You’re not building for eternity! Why not chuck those screens, get over yourself, and let some other pastors actually pastor your other congregations? No, because you are an arrogant control-freak, and it’s appalling the way you speak from the platform to your equals. No respect. You cannot bully people into giving money, or, worse, try to scare them into giving it! And why do you need to revamp the building with MILLIONS of Rands anyway? Disgusting. FAR better causes.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Awake

You hit the nail on the head, it’s a personality cult, they can’t do without At Boschoff. Jesus Christ fits nowhere into the picture, they just use Jesus’ Name to make people think it’s about Jesus when it’s not. What I find interesting about At Boschoff is his use of so called intelligent little one lines – At doesn’t quote the bible, he quotes himself.

And, thanks for the verbatim quote by At: “The Holy Spirit comes… to see the size of my offering”.

That’s a new one, and it’s shocking to say the least. All these false teachers should go work for our government, I think they will get in with the #guptagang very quickly. They can open the ‘Apostolic Church of Zuma” and just ask people for offerings. They will have to build the new ‘Nkandla Church Building in Soweto’. And they will tell South Africa via their ‘Gupta Faith TV’ station that, “God is only interested to see the size of our offerings”.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Deborah,

I couldn’t have said it any better. Touché

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Zac Poonen on ‘Word of Faith’ movement -Part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTt7CgYkfyE

Zac Poonen on ‘Word of Faith’ movement -Part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJOnru8omI

Awake

I loved these messages by Poonen, thank you.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Awake

I’ve realised that as much as these videos are very good, I’ve found out the following today researching Zac Poonen.

There are a few problems:

1) He does not believe in a Rapture before the Tribulation.
2) It appears he believes you can lose your salvation – he says you have to set up a permanent residence in Jesus Christ not a temporary apartment to come and go as you want.
I was under the full biblical understanding it was the Holy Spirit who set up permanent residence in us and through Him we are sanctified. “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:” (1 Corinthians 1:30)
3) He believes in 2 types of Christians – the super holy Christians vs. Christians who are not very holy. It appears you will only be taken up at the end of the Tribulation if you are totally spotless. Jesus is not coming for a tainted bride, but a pure white one.
The truth is, all born again Christians are the Bride of Christ, there are no levels or degrees of holiness, when you are born again you are IN CHRIST, end of story.

Okay then…

Awake

Thanks for clarifying. With all the nonsense saturating Christianity these days, I don’t mind picking my battles. We will always argue over points of theology. I’m more concerned with and appalled by the giant crevasse between the sincere and uncorrupted ministers of the gospel and the megalomaniac, prosperity-obsessed liars who peddle a false one.

Concerned

Dear DTW

I need a Bible based fellowship in Bfn to go to. (The Truth set me free)

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Dear Concerned

I am so sorry to tell you but I don’t know of anyone in Bloem for you to contact. What I can tell you to do for now is this: pick up your bible and start to study it, use the internet as your study tool, and let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth. Once you have a good understanding of the gospel then go out and seek fellowship – this way you won’t be caught off guard so easily (not saying you will never be deceived again – oh no, it still happens to the best of us) But if you have a good understanding of the Word of God you can easily put your foot down to a group of people and say “no, that’s not right, this is the truth.”

Here are a list of websites other than us you can read that speak the truth:

http://www.bereancall.com/
http://www.letusreason.org/
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/

(I support LighthouseTrails even though I have spoken out against Roger Oakland because of his affiliation with Chuck Missler and Ron Matsen being on his Board of Directors – I need to get an update on this issue.)

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