SDA AMAZING DISCOVERIES at Mosaïek Church

Amazing DiscoveriesUrgent warning about Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) Evengelistic drive 2010 at the Mosaïek Theatre in Randburg from 10 November to 4 December 2010:  AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010.

The Seventh Day Adventist church currently has adverts on TV (SABC) and Radio (702) regarding a FREE presentation at the Mosaic Theatre on Egypt, Jews and Palestine, the anti-Christ, the universe, etc., and is being promoted as AMAZING DISCOVERIES. They just don’t STATE UPFRONT that this is an evangelistic outreach from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Beware of Amazing Discoveries: it is a website of the Seventh Day Adventists and these FREE “presentations” are part of their 2010 Evangelistic Drive by John Carter.

AMAZING DISCOVERIES

Professor Walter J. Veith (from the University of the Western Cape) has been their jewel in their crown for many years. He is seemingly very credible in teaching the Bible, the end times and exposing the Roman Catholic Church. But he is a deceiver because he states that the Roman Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday, completely ignoring the Word of God in the book of Acts and how the apostles met on the first day of the week, the day of Jesus’ resurrection.  The Lord Jesus Christ is our Sabbath.

SDA have a gospel of works as well as a false prophetess, Ellen G White. They believe that the doctrine of the Sabbath is still a law by maintaining that because it’s part of the Ten Commandments, those who do NOT keep the Saturday Sabbath are not saved and that during the Tribulation that the Mark of the Beast all those who do not keep the Sabbath.  They have their own bible (Clear Word Bible) which is widely used in SDA churches, which contains serious false teachings concocted by Ellen G White.

“We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White’s writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other”.  [Emphasis added]  Ministry Magazine, Oct. 1981

The following is from the SDA Sandton website:

2. JOHN CARTER CAMPAIGN 10 November – 4 December 2010

The GRC, a group of lay evangelists from the Gauteng region, are partnering with the Carter Report and Hope Channel to present “Amazing Discoveries 2010”. From 10 November until 4 December, people living in the Johannesburg, South Africa, area can attend this campaign at the Mosaïek Theatre in Randburg. For the FIRST TIME IN SOUTH AFRICA’S HISTORY, they are planning to storm the city with television ads. The presses will soon be rolling off 500,000 colour brochures, and 100,000 homes will receive a beautiful hand addressed invitation. The campaign will be broadcast LIVE from the Mosaïek Theatre via microwave link to Sentech and then to homes and churches on the Ku-band (small dish) satellite system. The TV broadcast will start on Friday night the 12th of November from 20:00 – 21:00 on most nights until the 4th of December. Don’t miss this exciting series.  www.sandtonchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=68

The Mosaiek church in which the Theatre is located is run by Johan Geyser, Trevor Hudson and Dr Gys du Plessis, with associates Stephan Joubert, Koos van der Merwe, Braam van der Schyff, Theo Geyser and Kola de Klerk. They are linked to the (Mosaïek Church in Los Angeles) run by Erwin McManus and the (Mosaïek Christian Church in Rocklin California) by Frank and Dyan Colacurcio. Other friends include Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago) and (Velocity Culture) Ron Martoia and (Woodmen Valley Chapel Colorado) Matt Heard. Stephan Joubert is linked to the Dutch Reformed Church, Moreleta Park Church in Pretoria.

The Mosaïek church is a dark place, filled with New Age teaching, contemplative prayer and other occult practices.

Pastor Gavin Sklar Chik who spoke at the Mosaïek  church in Fairlands not so long ago taught at his Brackendowns Baptists church (in Johannesburg, Alberton) that people “are to breathing out sin and breathing in righteousness”. He still teaches at the Baptist Theological College and he is now known as the Baptist Mystic!

To answer the question regarding the Sabbath:

THIS is the Gospel Truth of the matter:

See complete article here:  Jesus Christ is our Sabbath Rest

1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
2) Jesus Christ
taught the Sabbath by having kept the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ
fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
4) Jesus became our Sabbath
REST in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.  

Hence all truly born again believers keep all commandants of God.

See this article on the SDA church: 

SDA Church – Seeking and Finding New Havens of Error and Deceit

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Dawn

I will still pray. God be with you I will not judge just feel sorry.

[EDITED by DTW: Praying for DTW is futile. Your god is nothing but a deceiver and the father of lies.]

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Leon

I stopped paying attention to your comments long ago, simply because you are not playing ball. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS regarding LIST of things Ellen G White believes? – or I will stop you from commenting here period. Comprende?

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Leon

Please speak english, thank you.

Pieter

Burning Lamp wrote:

Dear Zelda,
You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.

Amen brother!

God Bless
P

Zelda

Burning Lamp wrote:

We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath.

I understand that all the feastdays pointed to Jesus and were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and so doing away with all the ceremonial laws of the old testament. I have been badgered about being legalistic – which I find very patronizing and arrogant. But no one can give me a Biblical definition of ” the Lords Day” that indicates that it is indeed Sunday?…….and the mandate to worship on that day…….. For now I have to accept the fact that Sunday was introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine – as Christmas was introduced – and the feast of Ischtar etc. I have studied all the so called verses which claim that the first Christians worshiped on the first day of the week…..I just don’t see the transferral. I attend a home group that gathers on Thursday evenings…and fot now that is my ” church” seeing as the Reformed church also has doubtful doctrines. I would not have an issue if the ” Sundayists” didn’t insist on keeping Sunday ” holy”….afterall it shouldn’t be an issue to them either?

Burning Lamp

Michael, I both agree and disagree with you regarding your response to Zelda regarding the Sabbath. I believe Zelda’s question is a valid one. This is much more than a bunny trail – it is an issue that needs to be addressed as there is much confusion about it that leads to serious error. And yes, it does have have an impact upon the message of salvation because observance of a Sabbath puts people under Law. This should be obvious from reading the comments made here by those who are Sabbath keepers. Law and grace do not mix. Clarifying this is not fighting over a day -It is defending a principle of the foundations of the faith.

This thread may not have started out discussing this, but it is related to SDA beliefs and extends to other groups that practice Sabbath keeping including Messianics. We can’t sweep it under the rug and call it insignificant.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

Zelda wrote:

This is not about SDAdventism but about the Sabbath

BL wrote: ” You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation.”

I favour the Sabbath because I cannot see a clear mandate to ” keep” Sunday according to the Bible. I think the Sabbath was instituted at the creation as a day of communion with God (before the fall) and has never changed. Why are the first archealogical accounts of a 7day-cycle seen in the ancient Syrian/Summerian history? That goes back long before Moses or Abraham? How did Noah know which were ” clean” and ” unclean” animals ( of which 7pairs of clean beasts were to be taken on ark)..obviously God communicated his will (law?) to the pre- flood generation which was carried over by Noah to the postflood generations. The first manna was collected prior to Mt Horeb….and then they already knew that they had to collect double for the Sabbath? ( How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?) Why does the 10 commandments say ” Remember to keep the Sabbath holy” …..you can only remember or recollect something you already knew?

I have tried to understand what GE said about the Sabbath but quite honestly he seems to be an intellectual notch above my understanding. I do however feel uncomfortable with his insinuations that the Bible is errantly translated or somehow the devil’s deception:
” I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.”
Must I then understand his understanding of the above mentioned translation? Or maybe I just don’t understand him at all!

I know that ” God is not the author of confusion” and that I alone will be held accountable for what I believe….and I have prayed for guidance and understanding – but for my life I cannot see that Sunday observance is the will of God?

GE answers Zelda, with great joy and thankfulness:

I REALLY appreciate your attitude, Zelda; it is great and inspiring to converse with someone one just gets that feeling, here is someone without ulterior motives or arrogance.

Now I, GE, ‘favour the Sabbath’ because I can see a clear mandate to “keep” “the Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”, right from the word go, in the Name for the Sabbath Day according to the Bible; right here, now used, “the Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”. JUST the name ….

I also think the Sabbath was instituted at the creation. But that ‘institution’ was but tentative; it awaited CONFIRMATION THROUGH JESUS CHRIST under the New Covenant the Everlasting Covenant of Grace! HOW? By Jesus Christ HAVING RAISED FROM THE DEAD “IN THE SABBATH / SABBATH’S / IN THE END OF THE SABBATH / IN THE SABBATH’S FULLNESS / IN THE SABBATH’S FULFILMENT / ON THE SABBATH LATE / LATE IN THE SABBATH” ….all ways to translate the original Greek text in Matthew 28:1 the first phrase, “opse de sabbatohn…”. There is MUCH more in this text; but not for now.

Don’t worry, the Old Testament already spoke of the Sabbath exactly in this way— I’m not inventing! “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth— and ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED, AND REVIVED.” Exodus 31:18.

I won’t at this stage like to comment on Zelda’s observation, “as a day of communion with God (before the fall) and has never changed.” It will require much space, time an thinking— far too much for now. This REALLY is BIG things. God willing, opportunity will come to discuss it properly.

GE has nothing to say on “…Why are the first archealogical accounts of a 7day-cycle seen in the ancient Syrian/Summerian history? That goes back long before Moses or Abraham? How did Noah know which were ” clean” and ” unclean” animals ( of which 7pairs of clean beasts were to be taken on ark)..obviously God communicated his will (law?) to the pre- flood generation which was carried over by Noah to the postflood generations” …simply because knows sweet blow all about any of it.

On Zelda, saying, “The first manna was collected prior to Mt Horeb….and then they already knew that they had to collect double for the Sabbath? (How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?)…”

GE:
Zelda, you say the Israelites “already knew … the Sabbath”, but “How did Moses know what the Sabbath was?” Isn’t that rather contradictory? Yes, the question is, Did Moses know? No! Not even Moses knew …UNTIL THEN! God informed Moses. The whole exodus or passover, was God’s FIRST REVELATION to his People of the Seventh Day Sabbath! It’s clear from the Fourth Commandment itself; and it is still more clear in the NT reference in Hebrews 4:4 to God’s having “spoken THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY”. I believe God first time ever spoke about his Sabbath Day IN THE DAY THAT HE BROUGHT SALVATION TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD! O, how the Sundaydarians HATE THE THOUGHT! And you know what is incomprehensibly strange? That the Sabbatharians, won’t have it! However…

Zelda:
“Why does the 10 commandments say ” Remember to keep the Sabbath holy” …..you can only remember or recollect something you already knew?”

GE:
That’s right— “something you already knew”. What did the Israelites know about the creation? NOTHING! They were ignorant, desolate, SLAVES! Hoe could they know about the creation and God’s doings concerning the Seventh Day at the creation? They could not and in fact knew not one thing they could “remember or recollect”… EXCEPT… Except God’s redemption of them from Egypt. Except God’s merciful dealings with them through the Passover of Yahweh. EXCEPT… “You, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, YET NOW GOD HATH RECONCILED … you … whom the Father hath DELIVERED from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON … IN WHOM we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD … The Father hath made you meet to be PARTAKERS OF THE INHERITANCE of the saints in light.”

PASSOVER! The Passover OF YAHWEH LORD God Almighty!

And that was how at first, Israel as well as Moses learned about God’s Sabbath Day. That is how WE, shall learn about God’s Sabbath Day, or shall NEVER learn about it in Truth or Spirit.

Zelda:
“I do however feel uncomfortable with his insinuations that the Bible is errantly translated or somehow the devil’s deception:
” I say, satan the devilish devil has had his filthy hand in the works also here in these BEAUTIFUL chapters from the Word of GOD, in Hebrews 3 and 4 where we EVERY TIME read the word “rest” throughout.”
Must I then understand his understanding of the above mentioned translation? Or maybe I just don’t understand him at all!

GE gives account to Zelda’s demand:
I think you got a firm grasp on the meaning of what I have to say Zelda! Congratulations, and a warm and hearty thank you for your understanding!

Translations are VERY VERY DANGEROUS in this day of ours, be assured! …and warned! Much too much to discuss now. But as far as Hebrews 3 to 4 concerns…

The word “rest” from the Greek word ‘katapausis’ occurs 9 times in the New Testament. ONLY ONCE does it not occur in the Letter to the Hebrews, but in Acts 7:49 where God asks, “WHAT is the PLACE of my REST” – ‘katapausis’? It is the first Christian martyr proclaiming CHRIST to the stiff-necked People of God. And he GIVES ANSWER to God’s own question to Israel, in verse 52, God’s REST “shewed before of the coming of THE JUST ONE of WHOM ye have now been the betrayers and murderers.” HARD WORDS, THE WORDS OF SALVATION AND REST ARE!

So God’s ‘Rest’ in the only other place in the NEW Testament from the word ‘katapausis’, is Jesus Christ! EXACTLY what the whole Letter to the Hebrews teaches! Fantastic!! “MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES”! God’s Rest is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is the Rest of God. EVER AND EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS! Also in and at and with and through the creation of God “in the beginning”! So that where God declares that He “rested the Seventh Day”, it was because of JESUS CHRIST in and at and with and through God’s EVERY DEED-OF-ACT on and of that day “The Seventh Day”. See now why Jesus Christ from the beginning was the reason d’être of “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”? See now that humanity could impossibly have known ANYTHING about God’s Sabbath Day UNLESS REDEMPTION REVEALED HIMSELF TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD? When the People saw “The LORD our redemption”, on that day they saw Jesus Christ, and through and in and by Him, they saw the Day of God’s Rest— “The Lord’s Day” ‘Kuriakeh Hehmera’.

God has never changed. It’s us who were changed.

But I was talking about the FALSE translations of precisely this Letter to the Hebrew believers. It’s because the word ‘katapausis’ is every time correctly translated: “rest”, BUT ONCE the word ‘katapausis’ is NOT the word in the original, but ANOTHER WORD, that OTHER word is ALSO being ‘translated’, “rest”! But anyone can SEE the word and the concept of “rest” exclusively belongs to the word ‘katapausis’, and that if any OTHER original word were to be translated with the word ‘rest’ it MUST not be allowed. The word ‘katapausis’ for itself has earned the exclusive rights to the word and concept of “rest”. Translating any other word NEXT to it with “rest”, a priori will be FALSE ‘translation’!

Then ‘translating’ the specific other word in the original by its very NATURE and true meaning NOT the ‘rest’ of God, also, with “rest”, makes of such FALSE ‘translation’ the graver and more abominable fraud.

What is, that specific other word in the original by its very NATURE and true meaning NOT the ‘rest’ of God? In the Greek it is the word ‘sabbatismos’, in every place of its occurrence anywhere else (in secular literature) with the clear and unambiguous meaning of “A KEEPING (by man) OF THE SABBATH DAY”.

WHY then, WOULD anyone in his right mind, ‘translate’ the word ‘sabbatismos’ as were it a translation from the word ‘katapausis’, with “rest”? It is unequivocally OBVIOUS and undeniable: To COVER UP that which is demandingly CLEAR and matter of FACT, that …quote: “If JESUS had given them REST (from ‘katepausen’) THEREFORE THEN there does remain valid / obligatory / commanded / lawfully for the People of God KEEPING OF THE SABBATH DAY” from ‘sabbatismos’!!

AWAY is the very fibre and thrust of the whole content and construct and of every detail!! AWAY is it with the Sabbath Day!!! Accomplished and perfected the hoax of Sunday-worship.

The biggest fraudsters of all time are the Christian opinion-makers and trend-setters. God is waiting for them ahead.

So, dear Zelda be assured, ” God is not the author of confusion”; MEN are! And I alone will be held accountable for what I believed, and you for what you believed …after the fraudsters have brainwashed us. God will know and will understand, and will show mercy. But to the gangsters and tyrants over the consciences of the poor uninformed masses? I don’t think.

Like you, Zelda, I have prayed and every day and moment pray for guidance and understanding – and yes, like you, for my life I cannot see that Sunday observance is the will of God.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

Burning Lamp wrote:

Dear Zelda,

You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.

GE answers Burning Lamp:

Please read my conversation with Zelda just now.

Jesus is NOT “our Sabbath”; Jesus is “The Rest of God”.

Leon

Deborah waarom hou jy my verduideling van die sabbat 29/11 terug. Dit is net bybelse aanhalings, niks van my gedagtes nie, en ook geen beledegings nie. [EDITED by DTW: I have not, it’s right there. I ask that you speak in English please so others from other counties can understand too]

Gerhard Ebersöhn

Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

ina

Read Burning Lamps comment. In fact I will paste it here for you to answer your question. What you are doing is biblical wrong. Here is why:

“You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right? And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter. There is no more Sabbath – Christ Jesus IS our Sabbath – He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and the need for a Savior. We meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, not the Sabbath. We can and should worship Him every day of the week.”

GE trying to understand:

With all due respect Deborah from DTW, Burning Lamp has a few things here, UNEXPLAINED.

Therefore kindly allow me to try explain on behalf of myself if I may.

BL:
“You do understand the difference between the new and old covenants, right?”

GE:
So quick? I have VOLUMES on my shelves on this single topic which you with a stroke of the pen resolved. Of course, without a single ‘argument’ or Scripture.

So let’s move on:

BL:
“And you do understand when Christ was resurrected? Therein lies your answer and clears up the “confusion”. Much more could be said, but that is the crux of the matter.”

GE asks:

Dear Burning Lamp, and you? Do you “understand when Christ was resurrected?” Because, really, “Therein lies your answer” that “clears up the “confusion”.”

THAT IS IT!!

But DO, _YOU_, “understand when Christ was resurrected?”

In all sincerity now, HOW did you find it POSSIBLE?

First difficulty:
How many Scriptures – New Testament – tell us “when Christ was resurrected?”

Next difficulty:
How many translations or versions do we have of such Scripture / Scriptures?

Next difficulty:
WHICH should be our choice of translation or version and WHY?
And why should the others not count?

Final difficulty:
How does EVERYTHING we could up till now have determined reconcile or not reconcile with the Old Testament?

Not before we have solved every of these difficulties can we with a clean conscience say that we “understand when Christ was resurrected”.

I agree, and I admit that our answer to the question of “when Christ was resurrected” will determine whether “There is no more Sabbath” or there still is “a keeping of the Sabbath remaining valid for the People of God”.

We have just above in reply to Zelda already seen that Christ Jesus IS NOT, our Sabbath!

Because certainly He came to fulfill the Law which served as a teacher to show us our inability to please God and our need for a Savior. Which is one of the main reasons we as Christians meet for corporate worship on the Lord’s Day, the Sabbath Day which Christ through victory over the last enemy, death, became the Lord of.

And lastly, Yes, we can and should worship Him every day of the week. “But God the Seventh Day from all his works RESTED” through our Lord Jesus Christ and therefore “blessed the Seventh Day in our Lord Jesus Christ and sanctified the Seventh Day for our Lord Jesus Christ in that God the Seventh Day with our Lord Jesus Christ FINISHED … and REVIVED”, AND, “RESTED UP” Ex 31:17 Isaiah 57:15 in “His Name: Innermost Sanctuary” of the Full Fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit— “SABBATH’S”, Matthew 28:1.

Burning Lamp

GE, I was attempting to give Zelda a simple answer, not a dissertation. You are correct in that I should have referred to Pentecost Sunday when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

Now, I invite you to contemplate this commentary on the topic of the Sabbath by a trusted discernment ministry. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

The Sabbath Rest of Hebrews 4

Genesis 2: 3: “God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made,” but this written by Moses is not a command for man to observe this day and enter into his rest. Genesis was written by Moses for the Jewish people after the giving of the Law, we can understand why he included this explanation. He was explaining to them the significance of the Law that he had laid down for the nation of Israel. Speaking of the Sabbath; God declared: “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed” (Exod. 31: 17).

When the commandments are give later on Mt. Sinai, the Sabbath is included and they are told to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. Why? This was the commandment God gave them after their release from bondage. They had worked in slavery over 400 years with no days off, the Lord was giving them a blessing, a day as a gift in which they could rest. However they had already broken it by not remembering and He was angry at them saying “why don’t you keep my commandments.” Here God gave to Israel a gift, the same day He rested after His work of creating.

To remember the Sabbath means to distinguish it from the other days of the week. Israel was identified by their observance of rest on the 7th day because they were the only nation (theocracy) under the creator. The Bible states that God made known “the holy Sabbaths” by the “hand of Moses His servant” (Neh.9:14). This means many holy days set aside for rest but it all came through Moses to man. The sabbath did not come through any other prophet but Moses.

There are many Sabbaths that did not occur on the 7th day so the word Sabbath should not be limited to the narrow meaning of 7th day only as some teach, it means to rest, to cease from work. The true Sabbath was not just a rest one day in seven but involved a complete change of life. All the feast days were instructions for Israel, but they were also types and shadows of something that was to come. All the feast days had relevance to doctrinal instruction, they were types and shadows of something that was to come. The Sabbath day rest was a shadow and a type. In Christ the type is done away. In Israel’s Sabbath they did not have to prepare anything but only rest at home and enjoy God provision. This is a type of Christ in that He did the work for us and we enter into His rest. Instead of the continuing sacrifices of animals, he became “ the lamb of God” offered for the sin of the world only once. Instead of going to a high priest at the temple to represent us, we have the great high priest who entered the Holy place once and for all. In place of literal circumcision, he gave the cutting off of the flesh, a circumcision “that is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter”( Rom.2:28-29). Instead of Sabbath observance each week , he incorporated a day to rest from our works in the rest of God.

Hebrews is a commentary basically on Leviticus and compares the things of the law with Christ showing he is superior to what God gave through Moses. He is the substance of the shadows that are mentioned.
Heb.4 Explains of those not entering His rest was because of their unbelief 3:19.

Heb. 4:3-11 “For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”

The question that needs to be answered: is God telling us to keep the Sabbath day or something much more. The “Sabbath rest” should not be equated with the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath of the Old Covenant, because the Israelites who did keep it did not enter this “rest.” The writer explains there is “another Day.” Since Joshua and Israel kept the 7th day Sabbath this must mean something other than what Sabbatarians interpret it as. Joshua did not bring them into this day nor did he enter it himself.

David spoke of another day of rest. Heb.4:7-8… “saying in David, TODAY, after so long a time, as it is said, TODAY if you will hear his Voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY? There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” Joshua whose Hebrew name is equal to Jesus spoke of the one who came to deliver this rest. This was another day not a specific day like the 7th but a life that is given to all through the Messiah.

If there is another day then it isn’t Saturday. There is another rest that the author is referring to in the future. The Israelites did not enter God’s rest because of unbelief, not having faith but they did keep the Sabbath. They had the rules and regulations the oracles, but it was not mixed with faith. God has always looked to our heart, our attitude in the Spirit. The word for rest in vs.9 is the same word for Sabbath in the Greek. It is a Sabbath that never ends. In Heb.4.the author writes For the one who enters his rest he himself rests as God himself rested from his works. Today Jesus is our Sabbath. our every type, command, and ordinance in the Old Testament He fulfilled.

Israel in the Old covenant rested in a day; we rest in the Person and His finished work. It was a picture of the future rest in the new covenant, the cross has the same implication, and God finished his work. Our Sabbath day is rest in our soul, it is by faith. Under faith we can cease from our own works. Works that were required for the Israelites to do in the Old covenant to be accepted by god In this way the believer enters in and ceases from his own labors. God was bringing Israel to the promised land after their labors in Egypt this typifies rest in Messiah. “

Hebrews 4 tells us to be diligent to enter his Sabbath rest (4:11), we do this 365 days a year. This rest is found only in the Messiah who accomplished all of God’s work in our place. If you do not cease from your labors then you are not obedient to the New Testament Sabbath
Not the Law, nor Joshua could bring Israel into God’s True Sabbath “rest”, “another day”, not a Seventh day or a First day, Sunday, but the day of Salvation. Heb.4:2 “For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as them” But he states they did not mix it with faith.

Isaiah 49:8: “Thus says the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in “A” DAY OF SALVATION have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, (not a day, but Christ the savior) to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; Paul quotes the Isaiah passage 2 Cor. 6:2. “ For he says, in an acceptable time I have heard you, and in the DAY OF SALVATION have I helped you. behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the DAY OF SALVATION. This day is any day one receives the Lord and enters into the rest He offers in the new covenant. With the law one had to do work to be blessed in the New covenant that operates under grace we receive by faith to be blessed.

Hebrews 4:9-10: “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.” One can observe the Saturday Sabbath, but to have the rest they need to know “the Lord of the Sabbath. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.”

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. The old covenant which the Sabbath was the seal of was a conditional one based on works.
This Scripture is speaking of entering into a future God’s Sabbath Rest. Go back and read verses 4 and 5 again. Don’t forget that the “Rest” which God entered into (Genesis 2) was not a physical rest from his labor. It is an Eternal rest, not once every week. In Genesis 2 on the day God rested there is no “evening” or “morning.” This “rest” neither they nor we can enter into by the law, or the fourth commandment- a day; Moses was kept out of the Promised Land, the law kept him from entering while Joshua entered by faith.

These men are illustrations of types. The “True Sabbath Rest” is found only, by faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. In the New Testament the true light comes to earth and the shadows (types which were temporary) disappear. Now we no longer look to the shadows, but to the substance which the shadow was cast from, the substance in the person of Christ (Col. 2:16-17). To go back in the shadows out of necessity is to have our light become darkness as if we never received it. We are undoing all that Christ has done. Jesus said in Mt.11:28: “Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” The Apostles knew the burden of the law. This is why at their Jerusalem Council they refuted the law being added to grace. Stating those who do trouble you with words and subverting your souls. In Acts15:10: “Now therefore, why put God to the test, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.”

The Old Testament purpose of Sabbath was one of completion, the number 7 is the number of completion the 8th day is the number of new beginnings.

The emphasis at Pentecost is the first day, we should not confuse the Sabbath as now being Sunday, it is still Friday night to Saturday night. These are pictures of what God would do in the future as He came to earth. The Sabbath refers to completion, God rested when He was done, the Lords Day has to do with a new beginning, the resurrection to eternal life was something absolutely new. The Sabbath is relating to God’s rest in creation. The 8th day is a memorial of new creation of Israel as well as Gentiles receiving new life in God, Commemorated by the resurrection.

In Scripture the number seven represents completion; it is the cycle given for us as a completed week. Jesus rose on the first day of the week, (the 8th day) giving us Eternal Life and an eternal Sabbath rest in him. 1 Pet.1:3: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”
In Heb.4:10: “For he that has “entered into” his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. “This “entering in” is to “remain in”, the rest. It is an Eternal rest of which the seventh day is but a type. The high priest would enter in with sacrifices and come out again. Christ the eternal high priest entered once and finished the work remaining as our eternal high priest.

V.11 therefore let us be diligent (strive) to enter that rest- we must persevere in faith to the end not become disobedient and turn back as Israel did. This was not a day but a person and relationship. The solution is clear, its Jesus, it’s found in His person and not in the Old Testament commandments he replaced.

“We are delivered from the law, that … we should serve in newness of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter” (Rom. 7: 6). This letter clearly is in reference to the Old Testament law.
At His death on the cross, the “veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:51), indicating that the offering of sacrifices and other temple services have already served their purpose and were finished. Christ did not bring reform to the Mosaic Law and the Sabbath, but instead installed a NEW COVENANT to replace the Old (Heb.8:13). The Old Testament Sabbath was based on a works covenant. The NEW Testament rest (Sabbath) is based on grace.

Exod. 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.” Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. ”For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”
Grace was shown to Israel by the Holy Spirit who gave them rest. God’s presence, His Spirit brings us into His rest for today. Without Christ fulfilling the law perfectly and raising from the dead we could not be given the Spirit.

THUS WE SEE WHY GOD COULD NOT GIVE US ANY ONE DAY OF TEH WEEK AS A SABBATH (REST). WE’VE ENTERED INTO AND ARE TO REMAIN IN HIS REST. THIS, ISRAEL COULD NOT DO HAVING ONLY A SHADOW OF THE TRUE SUBSTANCE WHICH CAME LATER, WHICH WE NOW ENJOY. GOD SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT ON SUNDAY (PENTECOST) TO ACCOMPLISH THAT REST WHICH WAS APPREHENDED IN CHRIST. ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS LATER THE CHURCH WAS GIVEN THE COMFORTER, THE SPIRIT, GOD HIMSELF, WHO GIVES US THE PROMISES OF GOD AND THE TRUE REST PROMISED.

Leon

Deborah
I will answer your 4 questions one by one.Most of the first question has already been answered 29/11. The second part was; “JESUS DID NOT DIE AS GOD BUT AS A MERE MAN”.

Jesus walked on earth in the body of a mere man. Isa. 52:14 and not in His Godly state. As a baby He had to learn to walk and talk. In His Godly state Rev. 1:13,14,15 describe Him with white hair, eyes like flames of fire, feet like fine brass burning in fire and a voice like many waters.

One of many other reasons why He came as mere man was to show that man can live a ritches life 1 John 2:6 in His footsteps 1 Pet 2:21 with the guidens of the Holy Spirit John 16:13.

Jesus said, He did not do anything out of His own, but as the Father instructed Him. John 7:16, 8:28; 12:49. The satan attempt everything to make Jesus use His Godly powers for His own purpose Matt. 4:3,6. even through people, but Jesus ignored them and did not use His Godly powers Matt. 27:40,41. Even when Jesus did great wonders, He did not use His own powers John 11: 41,42.

Still Jesus is God our rock in the old testament. Ps. 62:2,6,7 and our Rock in the new testament. 1 Cor. 10:4. Our Shepherd in the odl test Ps. 23:1 and our Shepherd in the new test. John 10:11,14. He is our High Priest Heb. 8:42. He is our advocate and propitiation for our sins. 1 John 2:1,2. He is also the way, the truth and the life, as well as our only way (not Mary) to our only Holy Father in heaven. John 14:6.

This is the teachings of EG White. The next point no 2, The Trinity and Christ is Michael.

Zelda

Zelda answers GE:

Thankyou. Eureka . I see it. I had to go back and read every one of you comments to get it fully. (To clarify one point – I used Moses and Isrealites interchangably as one concept) Now I’m too scared too move my head in case something pops out again. I have a nagging suspicion though that I was not the only one who did/does not understand you!

My most favourite verse in the Bible is john 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up”…..I use it as my motto in life – if I can’t see Jesus Christ centrally in something – then I know it not right (or irrelevant.)

My dominee gave me Hebrews 4 to read 2 years ago to rationalize Sunday keeping ….. and only now do I understand Hebrews 4 !! and I see The Day of the Lord……which leads to next question: Did you know there is a ” Night of the Lord”?
Ex 12:42 This is that night of the LORD, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations…..

Magda Kopp

Oh dear so many interpretations. I dont live under a law because when I was born again Jesus set me free. I dont understand why christians argue about the Sabbath if you are truly a child of God then you want to live to please him and not people. There is so much turmoil in the christian church at the moment that we should pray without ceasing because time is precious. Satan is glorified because that is exactly what he wants confusion arguments unforgiveness he has since the day of Adam and Eve never stopped to attack the truth.

I worship and talk to Jesus day and night there is no specific day to me every day is His day. Love your enemies pray for them and above all live the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I myself love the beautitudes. I love you all and pray that Jesus will bless you and fill your hearts with His amazing love and grace. There is enough deceivement going on and the great apostasy is upon us. Don’t feed the devil resist him and he will flee from you. We need to pray for our brothers and sisters who are following other spirits other gospels and please dont belief all the lies of the emergent preachers. Everything that we need to know for our salvation is in the scriptures and Jesus said if you love me you will obey my teachings. God Bless you all.

Magda kopp – 1 Desember 2010

ina

BL
Christ came to fulfill the Law not do away with it. Christ was resurrected on the First day not on the Sabbath even up to this point God kept to the law, if Christ came to change that don’t you think he would have been resurrected on the Sabbath and the Old and new testament should be read together. It is simple and easy to understand. According to you we can go ahead an brake all the law because we as sinners……………and all that. We a free from the law by have Gods law in us and by living in Love ( the fist few laws are all about love) we can keep the law and being free from it at the same time.
Please give me the scripture in the New Testament where Jesus say that we don’t need to keep the Sabbath and is Christ above God and his laws.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

Zelda wrote:

…………

For now I have to accept the fact that Sunday was introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine – as Christmas was introduced – and the feast of Ischtar etc. I have studied all the so called verses which claim that the first Christians worshiped on the first day of the week…..I just don’t see the transferral. ……………

GE hopes to shed a little light on the subject of the first Christian ‘observance’ of the First Day of the week:

Sunday was not, “introduced with the ” paganization” of the church by Constantine”; it was introduced MUCH earlier to the growing Christian community, in fact early during the FIRST century AD. Fortunately Paul it seems, stemmed the tide of this initial wave of …

…paganism with its
“superstitious worship” (‘paratehreisthe’) of
the “elemental (‘stoicheia’)—
weak and beggarly no-gods” (‘meh ousin theois’) of …

The Gospel reaching out to the ‘old’, pagan Greek ‘world’….
“preach among the Gentiles” 2:1…
“without respect of person” 2:6;
“in this present evil world” 1:4 (4:3);
“any man” (‘tis’) 1:9;
“man” (‘anthrohpon’ over against “God”) 1:10;
“received from no man …is not according to man” 1:11,12;
“flesh and blood” 1:16c;
“neither …apostles” 1:17-19;
“preach Him among the heathen” 1:16b;
“Arabia …Damascus …Syria …Cilicia …Judea” 1:17,21,22;
“unknown by face” 1:22.
“The Gospel PREACHED … to ALL nations” 3:8

“Fourteen years after” 2:1
the two ‘worlds’ MEET….
“again to Jerusalem” 2:1;
“among the Gentiles” 2:2;
“with me a Greek” 2:3;
“those …whatsoever they were” 2:6;
“the uncircumcision” 2:7;
“the Gentiles” 2:8;
“the heathen” 2:9;
“Antioch” 2:11;

“Peter (2:7) did eat with the Gentiles” 2:12;
“why compellest thou the Gentiles?” 2:14;
“sinners of the Gentiles” 2:15;
“we Jews by nature” 2:15;
“even we …we ourselves” 2:16,17;
“If I (a Jew) build again the things that I destroyed …” 2:18

The new Gentile Church “returns” to its pagan roots while clutching to the former glory of the Law; the Gospel in the process is being lost sight of completely….
“O foolish Galatians!” 3:1…
“Who bewitched you that ye should not obey the truth” 3:1;
“Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law or by the hearing of faith?” 3:2 ;
“Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” 3:3;
“Ye suffered so many things, in vain?” 3:4;
“Ministereth (God) the Spirit to you by works or by hearing of faith?” 3:5;
“The Scriptures foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, before preached the Gospel to Abraham (father of the Jews), meaning, ALL nations shall be blessed in (Abraham) … which be of faith …” 3:7-9.

Paul explains to the Galatians how the Gospel works…
by first explaining to them – they being heathen – how the LAW, works…
3:10 “For as many (from “among ALL men”) as are (justified) of the works of the law, are (“without respect to person”) under the curse (of the law), for it is written, Cursed is EVERY ONE that (a) continueth not in (b) all things which are written in the Book to (c), do them.”
Unequivocal! NO ambiguousness!

Paul concludes from how the law works…
3:11 “That now is EVIDENT: _NO MAN_ (Jew or Gentile) in the sight of God is just (or justified), for (it is written), The just (Gentile or Jew) shall live by FAITH (ONLY)!
3:12 Why? Because the law is not out of faith, but, (indiscriminately) is for ANY man: Do ALL the Laws and live.” Or, Fail to do ALL the laws, and die! It’s the same for EVERYONE; it has nor mercy for any, because “the law is not of faith”.

T.b.c., DV.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

….continuing from above ….

Paul concludes from how the law works…
3:11 “That now is EVIDENT: _NO MAN_ (Jew or Gentile) in the sight of God is just (or justified), for (it is written), The just (Gentile or Jew) shall live by FAITH (ONLY)!
3:12 Why? Because the law is not out of faith, but, (indiscriminately) is for ANY man: Do ALL the Laws and live.” Or, Fail to do ALL the laws, and die! It’s the same for EVERYONE; it has nor mercy for any, because “the law is not of faith”.

Therefore…
3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law (“which is death”) HE, being made a curse for us.”
“HE, being made a curse for us: FOR IT IS WRITTEN …”
“it is written: Is everyone / anyone, that hangeth on a tree …”
“on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles”.

It is IN DEATH and in the CURSE of the Law, that all men are created EQUAL, and that the blessing of Abraham came on the Gentiles indiscriminately! It indeed is in the death and in the curse of the Law upon JESUS CHRIST and which JESUS CHRIST WAS MADE (‘created’) “FOR US” ALL, that all men are created EQUAL, and that the blessing of Abraham came on the Gentiles”: INDEED,
“came on the Gentiles THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!”

Ask a Muslim why he does not believe Jesus is Christ and Lord Almighty God. Ask him, and he will tell you, because God cannot be made the equal of all men, even in the curse of law and death. No, that is just TOO MUCH OF A ‘MAN’ TO BE GOD for an Muslim.

Therefore here already is the reason why the Gentile ‘Christian’ of Paul’s “world” and time, found THEIR reason to return to THEIR, “former no-gods” which in their eyes, were the true ‘gods’ because of their GLORY. They were the glorious god-beings of the “ELEMENTAL, FIRST IN PRINCIPLE” LORDS and GODS OF THE ‘WORLD’ “venerated” and “worshipped” and “carefully watched” for their VERY GLORY. Which was a illustrious and triumphant procession through eternity and TIME and WORLDS and space AS CERTAIN AND AS GLORIOUS AS THE RISING OF THE SUN, EVERY “DAY”, EVERY “MONTH”, EVERY “SEASON”, EVERY “YEAR”! BEHOLD, THE GODS OF THE ‘STOICHEIA’ OF GREEK “WISDOM” AND “PHILOSOPHY”!

Here one sees the origin of the ‘observance’ of what those Galatian Greeks, called, “The Day of the Lord Sun”. Here, one sees the UTTER humanistic ESSENCE of its content and form, which is PRIDE THROUGH AND THROUGH. IT IS “NOT OF FAITH”, humble, obedient, “FAITH” ONLY.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

some corrections:

…it has nor mercy for…
…it has _no_ mercy for…

…he equal of all men, even in the curse…
…he equal of all men, _equal_ even in the curse…

…GOD for an Muslim…
…GOD for _a_ Muslim…

…was a illustrious…
…was _an_ illustrious…

Apologies and thanks.
GE

Gerhard Ebersöhn

I said,

Here one sees the origin of the ‘observance’ of what those Galatian Greeks, called, “The Day of the Lord Sun”. Here, one sees the UTTER humanistic ESSENCE of its content and form, which is PRIDE THROUGH AND THROUGH. IT IS “NOT OF FAITH”, humble, obedient, “FAITH” ONLY.

So don’t expect “those who oppose themselves to the acknowledgement of truth” will do so “gently… patient… in meekness” and fairness.

Gerhard Ebersöhn

So don’t expect “those who oppose themselves to the acknowledgement of truth” will do so “gently… patient… in meekness” and fairness.

Yes, I have not finished yet. We got as far as 3:13 only.

We are asking, How it came about that Christian replaced the Sabbath with Sunday? I want to show Paul answers our enquiry in his Letter to the Galatians— former heathen, pagan, Gentiles. So far we have seen

Paul stemmed the tide of the first intrusion of paganism with its
“superstitious worship” (‘paratehreisthe’) of
the FOUR “elemental weak and beggarly no-gods” of time:
“DAYS, MONTHS, SEASONS, YEARS”,
directly through his Letter to the Churches in Galatia,
making it clear to them

in chapter 1, that he
preached the Gospel,
to all nations,
as the equal and identical selfsame ‘man’
which the Jews were.

And in the second place,
in chapter 2, that the
Jews were PROVEN in real-life confrontations
the very same, no worse, no better,
as the heathen ….

In the third place,
in chapter 3,
Paul explains how that the identity of all men is made plain
BEFORE THE LAW
IN THE CURSE OF THE LAW
IN CHRIST JESUS
IN HIS DEATH—
that Jesus Christ
is believed
GOD in his mercy
by FAITH
for having been “the Blessing of the Promises” of God 3:14,15:
“the Blessing of the Promises” of God “AS OF ONE” 3:16,
“AS OF ONE”: Jesus Christ,
Jesus Christ BEFORE the “four hundred and thirty years” 3:17,
BEFORE in Egypt when there was no nation of Israel yet,
and all men before God were the same, ‘as one’,
and even Paul would be reckoned a heathen pagan!

“For if the Inheritance be of the Law, it is no more of Promise: but God gave it to Abraham by Promise”— and that Promise was Christ. 3:18

Now see how again for Paul the issue becomes one of the Divinity of Jesus Christ…

3:19 “What has the Law been for then? It was added because of transgression (by every man as the next) till The Seed should come to Whom the Promise applied, ordained by angels in the hands of a Mediator. 20 Now a mediator not of one (a mediator) BUT GOD IS ONE” …of two UN-EQUALS, God and man. God is God, and the transgressor, is man in the matter of mediation for sin. Now who stands in between? “He was reckoned with the transgressors” and having been Mediator, requires Jesus Christ to be BOTH Man and God in “ONE” : “GOD”— “God”, in the MAN JESUS CHRIST.

The Galatians would have NONE OF IT!
So they rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and they
“RETURNED BACK TO” their
“FORMER”, “weak and beggarly first principle no gods …” :
“Ye worship (= ‘observe’) DAYS, MONTHS, SEASONS, YEARS.”
The vicious cycle has been completed … or NEARLY completed, because, thank God, we see Paul wrote subjunctive. He said “I am AFRAID I (would have) laboured in vain.” He wrote, “IF” you sealed your fate and “had yourselves circumcised … Christ will be of no worth for you; you are cut off from Christ.”

“JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW you are fallen from grace WHO-SOEVER you are”, Jew or Gentile! 5:4. Your “superstitious veneration of days, months, season years”, has become a matter of rejecting GOD, taunting GOD, and blaspheming GOD. That, is the implications of Sunday-observance in the Body of Christ’s Own his holy Church.

I shall nevertheless not let go of my fidelity to Jesus’ Church. But so help me God, I won’t pay homage to the beast and the image of the beast that like a dragon with tongues of flames guards its weak and beggarly, abominal idol.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

ina

I’ve said this 4 times now to others, I will say it again.

THIS is the Gospel Truth of the matter:

1) Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE WAS THE LAW – (Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath because HE, was the Law of the Sabbath.)
2) Jesus Christ TAUGHT the Sabbath by having KEPT the Sabbath because he was still on earth and Lord of the Sabbath Day on earth.
3) When Jesus was crucified many miraculous things took place, one of these being that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and it was written in our hearts (all 10 commandments)
4) Jesus became our Sabbath rest in all born again Christians – we do not need to WORK anymore to keep this commandment because the HOLY SPIRIT now abides in each and every born again believer.

Hence all truly born again believers keep all 10 commandants.

Burning Lamp

Zelda and Ina, I would ask that you please refer to and carefully read the article I cited – http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

it has the true biblical answers to this question and says it much better than I can. As for GE, I am sorry to say that his contributions have resulted in much confusion and have cleared up nothing. Like Debs has repeatedly said, this is really a simple topic and has boiled it down in an excellent fashion. Please prayerfully heed her words.

Also, GE has revealed himself to be Calvinist in his beliefs. This unfortunately further taints anything he has to contribute as this is a basic error that strikes at the very heart of the Gospel, a salvation issue. If one does not understand the Gospel, one cannot expound on anything beyond that correctly.

Andrew

Hi

Just want to thank you guys for revealing the truth
My heart was getting very Heavy especially about the
soul sleep theory. The Truth does set you free!

Deborah (Discerning the World)

Pleasure Andrew! All in a days work.

Deborah (Discerning the World)

GE

Ok, can you stop now. I have summed up the matter SIMPLY.

I think I am going to stop comments on this topic – it’s getting out of hand and to be honest I don’t understand what you are writing.

Norm Clark

Burning Lamp wrote:

Dan, since you opened the can of worms, I feel that it must be at least briefly addressed although not intended to lead into a full-fledged discussion. For another time and another day.

My experience with Sabbatarianism is that it is a very dangerous doctrine. This applies to any group that rigidly holds to the view whether they be Messianic (which is in my view a plan of the enemy to divide the Church) or any sect that worships on Saturday exclusively.

You err if you believe that the Sabbath was established at creation. It was established in the Law set up for the children of Israel. Get the key word Law. As believers we are no longer under the Law and Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

The Messianic movement extends the Law rather than giving freedom from it. It also creates a separate group removed from the general Body of Christ and retains the traditions of Judaism over the fulfillment of the Law by our Savior. It is ironic that although intended to attract Jewish people to Christ what often happens is that it attracts non-Jewish folks who are intrigued with the feasts and traditions and even come to think they have to learn Hebrew to fully understand the Bible.

A study of the feasts is beneficial only to show their significance of how our Lord was a fulfillment and completion of them.

I have personally seen the damage that can be done as people become out of balance and hung up on this issue and Sabbatarianism is a big part of it.

Norm Clark

Reallyl now! The Sabbath was not established at creation??! What a heretical, unbiblical bunch of claptrap. Genesis 2:2,3 clearly indicates that the sacredness (or holiness)of the seventh day was established by God at the conclusion of the creation week. Although the word Sabbath is not used explicitly in those verses, the fourth commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) – which you seem to want desperately to rid yourself of – clearly refers back to the creation event and identifies the seventh day which was hallowed there by God as the Sabbath. The language in these scriptures is clear and unambiguous. NOWHERE in scripture is there a suggestion, much less a clear and unambiguous assertion, that the Sabbath was ever “decommissioned” or de-sanctified by God.

Sure, Sabbatarianism when distorted, taken to extremes, or encumbered by a raft of man-made regulations can become “dangerous”. Isn’t that what Jesus was addressing when He healed people on the Sabbath, condoned His disciples picking grain on the Sabbath, declared that it was “lawful” to do good of the Sabbath, and emphasised that the Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jews!)?

As for the tired old half-truth that we are no longer “under the law”, it’s nothing more than a heresy based on incomplete understanding of the teachings of Jesus and Paul. Jesus said He didn’t come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He then gives us that perfect fulfillment of the law (by Him) as a totally free gift, thereby justifying us before God. Hence, our observance of the law – always imperfect as it is – has no role whatsoever in accomplishing our salvation. That was done for us by Jesus. Paul reassures us that we are thereby freed from the condemnation of the law (Romans 8:1,2). But Paul then goes on to tell us plainly that when we are in Christ, He “gives life” (ie, enabling power) to our mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in us (vs. 11), and all this in order that the “righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit” (vs 4). Paul is calling us here to the new covenant ideal where Christ write His law on our heart. Observance of the law then becomes a fruit of the Spirit’s work in our life rather than an onerous and unattainable requirement for our salvation.

Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)

Norm Clark wrote:

NOWHERE in scripture is there a suggestion, much less a clear and unambiguous assertion, that the Sabbath was ever “decommissioned” or de-sanctified by God.

So, Jesus Christ never fulfilled the Law and now you have to do it. The Law is a composite unit; if you break one, you have broken them all. Oh, but then again, I must give you the flags up hooray because you are keeping the entire Law 24/7. Excuse me, what’s your name – Jesus Christ?

You wrote:

Sure, Sabbatarianism when distorted, taken to extremes, or encumbered by a raft of man-made regulations can become “dangerous”. Isn’t that what Jesus was addressing when He healed people on the Sabbath, condoned His disciples picking grain on the Sabbath, declared that it was “lawful” to do good of the Sabbath, and emphasised that the Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jews!)?

Wasn’t the picking up of firewood on a Sabbath a good thing?

And while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered firewood upon the sabbath day. And those that found him gathering firewood brought him unto Moses and Aaron and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp. Then all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

Although the Bible doesn’t say, this man may have wanted to care for his family in gathering firewood to build a fire so that he could cook a meal for them. Isn’t that a good thing? So, if you really want to keep the Sabbath in the way it was instituted in the Old Testament, you’d better tell your wife to stop switching on the stove and cooking some food for you on the Sabbath. You might just find yourself being stoned to death.

You are placing yourself under a schoolmaster again and therefore belittling faith.

But the scripture has concluded all under sin that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the believers. But before faith came, we [the Jews] were under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Therefore the law was our [the Jews] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we [the Jews like the non-Jews] might be justified by faith. But when faith is come, we [the Jews] are no longer under the hand of the schoolmaster. (Gal 3:22-25).

You wrote:

Observance of the law then becomes a fruit of the Spirit’s work in our life rather than an onerous and unattainable requirement for our salvation.

No, you are barking up the wrong tree. It is not the observance of the Law that brings forth the fruit of the Holy Spirit in a saint. It is the putting to death every vestige of sin (the old Adam nature) in our bodily members. I am sure you will recall what Paul said?

Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to those that know the law), that the law has dominion over a man only as long as he lives? For the woman who is subject to a husband is obligated to the law so long as the husband lives; but if the husband dies, she is free from the law of the husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she belongs to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law so that she is no adulteress if she belongs to another man. Likewise ye also, my brethren, are become dead to the law in the body of the Christ that ye should belong to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For while we were in the flesh, the affections of the sins which were by the law worked in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are free from the law of death in which we were held, that we might serve in newness of Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (Rom 7:1-6)

You cannot bear the fruit of the Spirit of God whilst you are defiantly placing yourself under the Law. In fact, He will never produce his fruit in you while you refuse to do the only thing that produces fruit. Trying to keep the Law and at the same time say you believe in Jesus Christ is adultery. It is not I who says so; It is God Himself who says so. You cannot have both the Law and Jesus Christ as your husband. That’s pure adultery. Paul continues to say:

And I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing; for I have the desire, but I am not able to perform that which is good. For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not desire, that I do. And if I do that which I do not desire, I am not working, but sin that dwells in me. So that, desiring to do good, I find this law: evil is natural unto me. For I delight with the law of God with the inward man, but I see another law in my members which rebels against the law of my mind, bringing captive unto the law of sin which is in my members. (Rom 7:18-23)

You cannot please God by any means other than faith. (Hebrews 11:6). Trying to keep a Law (like the Sabbath) says to God: “I don’t need faith. I can do it myself.” There is NOTHING good in the flesh (man’;s own efforts to please God). It is nothing but putrefying dung.

Please tell me, am I lost if I do not keep the SDA Sabbath?

C. Stein

Jesus fulfilled the Law but Sabbath was given before the Law. Exodus 16:23 tells us that on the sixth day of week israelites had to collect also the manna for the seventh day. Because the next day was “the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord”. I am not a Sabbatarianist ( I’am not even quite sure what it means) I noticed this myself only some months ago – I mean the fact that Sabbath was before the Law.

Doris

It appears this page was set up to discredit the Sabbath keepers. My guess is by a catholic tare, or any of their Sunday children. Every single person is responsible for their own salvation. God does not change. Sabbath is still Sabbath. It was set at creation and will be present in the new earth as well as heaven above. The 10 commandments existed in heaven before earth. Adam was not a Jew, yet he kept the Sabbath. Please people, get a KJV bible, pray for discernment and find the truth. GOD CHANGES NOT! NEITHER DOES HIS WORD! Hebrews 4:8-9 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Read the entire chapter and please realize the importance of this day which was created from the foundation of the world.

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