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	Comments on: Vatican II and The New Evangelization World Wide Take Over	</title>
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	<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/</link>
	<description>Discerning Biblical Answers for Christians in Todays World</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 20 May 2021 13:06:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-496486</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Lessing (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2021 13:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-496486</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-496475&quot;&gt;Marthina&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Marthina. Thanks for your comment. Indeed, one of the most cunning schemes Satan uses to wean people from a childlike faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is to impose on them the necessity to experience spirituality. Beware of teachers who tell you &quot;you must do this or that&quot; to come into God&#039;s presence or experience his presence or experience the Holy Spirit&#039;s fire. It is not of God. It also includes things like speaking in tongues, falling backward (slain in the spirit), prophesying, dreams, and visions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-496475" >Marthina</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Marthina. Thanks for your comment. Indeed, one of the most cunning schemes Satan uses to wean people from a childlike faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is to impose on them the necessity to experience spirituality. Beware of teachers who tell you &#8220;you must do this or that&#8221; to come into God&#8217;s presence or experience his presence or experience the Holy Spirit&#8217;s fire. It is not of God. It also includes things like speaking in tongues, falling backward (slain in the spirit), prophesying, dreams, and visions.</p>
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		By: Marthina		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-496475</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marthina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-496475</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So...  we had a WhatsApp communication send out earlier this week to come to church and attend a type of ‘Via Dolorosa” ‘walk’   With different stations setup to represent the path or route that Jesus walked on his way to His crucifixion.  Being  a member of the DRC SouthAfrica but never heard of this term my discernment went up a notch.

  I am ashamed to admit not reading much or understanding most of the Bible all my life (recently born again) but now I can not stop reading and studying TheWord of God!!  And,  of course, nowhere do we read  about the born-again believers practicing this.

  I could go into the details of what every ‘station’ represent and how you can meditate on the different themes and bringing it back to what God is doing in your life right.  But I am sure you get the picture.
I have read extensively on this site all things RC and the different traditions being performed, especially this time of the year.   Thought I would shed some light on this...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230;  we had a WhatsApp communication send out earlier this week to come to church and attend a type of ‘Via Dolorosa” ‘walk’   With different stations setup to represent the path or route that Jesus walked on his way to His crucifixion.  Being  a member of the DRC SouthAfrica but never heard of this term my discernment went up a notch.</p>
<p>  I am ashamed to admit not reading much or understanding most of the Bible all my life (recently born again) but now I can not stop reading and studying TheWord of God!!  And,  of course, nowhere do we read  about the born-again believers practicing this.</p>
<p>  I could go into the details of what every ‘station’ represent and how you can meditate on the different themes and bringing it back to what God is doing in your life right.  But I am sure you get the picture.<br />
I have read extensively on this site all things RC and the different traditions being performed, especially this time of the year.   Thought I would shed some light on this&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Martin Horan		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-218143</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Horan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-218143</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We only have to go to Jesus Christ Himself, Our Lord and Saviour, to see what He said about tradition (let alone what proverbs says about leaning to our own understanding [Proverbs 3:5]!)[Matt 15:2-9 &#038; Mark 7:7-13]. 
Jesus utterly lambasts traditions in those Scriptures.
The &quot;Church Fathers&quot; were not infallible. In fact, we find errors in them. 
(Besides they weren&#039;t Catholics. The Catholic Church didn&#039;t exist then. Anyway, they never insisted that tradition was on a par with Scripture. That Catholic dogma did not come into being until 1545.) 
The men who wrote the Bible wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And we find in the Psalms that God magnifies His Word above His Own Name [Ps 138:2].
We are told in 1 Thess 5:21 &#038; 1 John 4:1 that we must &quot;Prove all things&quot; and &quot;Test the spirits&quot; and we do so by going to the very Word God holds above His Own Name, not by going to mere men. 
Jesus Himself warned us to let NO man deceive us [Matt 24:4 &#038; Mark 13:5]. He doesn&#039;t say, &quot;EXCEPT for popes or bishops or priests or ministers or Billy Graham or Benny Hinn&quot;--or ANYONE else.
ALL men are fallible and that&#039;s why we have to cling to God&#039;s Word. 
Jesus Himself was forever quoting Scripture. The devil on the contrary misquoted it all the time. So do the men he uses to confuse humanity and lead them astray. 
And the unscriptural idea of papal infallibility wasn&#039;t a Catholic dogma until 1870! 
And plenty of the Catholic clergy at the time thought it was ridiculous and rightly so.
I was &quot;educated&quot; as a Catholic and I thank God that I discovered his Bible and I&#039;m thankful for it. 
We should never forget the personal sacrifices of the men who were persecuted and martyred for bringing the Scriptures to us. Some were burned at the stake with Bibles tied hanging from their necks.
And who were their persecutors and murderers? It was none other than the Roman Catholic inquisitors and to this day they have never apologized for those atrocities. The point is, they can&#039;t because their popes being infallible, as they believe, must have been right!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We only have to go to Jesus Christ Himself, Our Lord and Saviour, to see what He said about tradition (let alone what proverbs says about leaning to our own understanding [Proverbs 3:5]!)[Matt 15:2-9 &amp; Mark 7:7-13].<br />
Jesus utterly lambasts traditions in those Scriptures.<br />
The &#8220;Church Fathers&#8221; were not infallible. In fact, we find errors in them.<br />
(Besides they weren&#8217;t Catholics. The Catholic Church didn&#8217;t exist then. Anyway, they never insisted that tradition was on a par with Scripture. That Catholic dogma did not come into being until 1545.)<br />
The men who wrote the Bible wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And we find in the Psalms that God magnifies His Word above His Own Name [Ps 138:2].<br />
We are told in 1 Thess 5:21 &amp; 1 John 4:1 that we must &#8220;Prove all things&#8221; and &#8220;Test the spirits&#8221; and we do so by going to the very Word God holds above His Own Name, not by going to mere men.<br />
Jesus Himself warned us to let NO man deceive us [Matt 24:4 &amp; Mark 13:5]. He doesn&#8217;t say, &#8220;EXCEPT for popes or bishops or priests or ministers or Billy Graham or Benny Hinn&#8221;&#8211;or ANYONE else.<br />
ALL men are fallible and that&#8217;s why we have to cling to God&#8217;s Word.<br />
Jesus Himself was forever quoting Scripture. The devil on the contrary misquoted it all the time. So do the men he uses to confuse humanity and lead them astray.<br />
And the unscriptural idea of papal infallibility wasn&#8217;t a Catholic dogma until 1870!<br />
And plenty of the Catholic clergy at the time thought it was ridiculous and rightly so.<br />
I was &#8220;educated&#8221; as a Catholic and I thank God that I discovered his Bible and I&#8217;m thankful for it.<br />
We should never forget the personal sacrifices of the men who were persecuted and martyred for bringing the Scriptures to us. Some were burned at the stake with Bibles tied hanging from their necks.<br />
And who were their persecutors and murderers? It was none other than the Roman Catholic inquisitors and to this day they have never apologized for those atrocities. The point is, they can&#8217;t because their popes being infallible, as they believe, must have been right!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bunnytrails		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-19129</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bunnytrails]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-19129</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Deborah

1. What they say squares perfectly with Catholic Tradition...thats the whole point. 

2. huh? I don&#039;t understand your point...i replied to the article and your post. There are no bunny trails.

Peace]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Deborah</p>
<p>1. What they say squares perfectly with Catholic Tradition&#8230;thats the whole point. </p>
<p>2. huh? I don&#8217;t understand your point&#8230;i replied to the article and your post. There are no bunny trails.</p>
<p>Peace</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deborah (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-18948</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-18948</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-18482&quot;&gt;Bunnytrails&lt;/a&gt;.

BB

Thanks for reply



&lt;blockquote&gt;1. The early Christians I am referring to are the disciples of the disciples of Jesus. In particular Ignacious of Antioch and Polycarp&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What has Ignacious and Polycarp said that is not already said in the Bible?



&lt;blockquote&gt;2. The quote is from the protestant author and not my own.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You truly are as your nickname says... a bunnytrail.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-18482" >Bunnytrails</a>.</p>
<p>BB</p>
<p>Thanks for reply</p>
<blockquote><p>1. The early Christians I am referring to are the disciples of the disciples of Jesus. In particular Ignacious of Antioch and Polycarp</p></blockquote>
<p>What has Ignacious and Polycarp said that is not already said in the Bible?</p>
<blockquote><p>2. The quote is from the protestant author and not my own.</p></blockquote>
<p>You truly are as your nickname says&#8230; a bunnytrail.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bunnytrails		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-18484</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bunnytrails]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 19:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-18484</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[PLUS if I had to offer other literature than Holy Scripture it would have to be the histories compiled in the early period as well as the writings of the Early Christian Church leaders which are freely available online.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PLUS if I had to offer other literature than Holy Scripture it would have to be the histories compiled in the early period as well as the writings of the Early Christian Church leaders which are freely available online.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bunnytrails		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-18482</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bunnytrails]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 19:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-18482</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Deborah

1. The early Christians I am referring to are the disciples of the disciples of Jesus. In particular Ignacious of Antioch and Polycarp

2. The quote is from the protestant author and not my own.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Deborah</p>
<p>1. The early Christians I am referring to are the disciples of the disciples of Jesus. In particular Ignacious of Antioch and Polycarp</p>
<p>2. The quote is from the protestant author and not my own.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Deborah (Discerning the World)		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-16149</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah (Discerning the World)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-16149</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-16057&quot;&gt;Bunnytrails&lt;/a&gt;.

Bunnytrails

I agree with all your points except 



&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;d.) Has clearly not found inspiration from the early Christians themselves via the writings of the Early Church Fathers.&quot;  &lt;/blockquote&gt;



Who are these early church fathers you are referring to?



&lt;blockquote&gt;one cannot find a single passage that states that “the written Word alone, and not tradition also, is our sole authority for faith and practice.” &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Disagree.  What &lt;strong&gt;other &lt;/strong&gt;litarature would you refer to for authority regarding your faith?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-16057" >Bunnytrails</a>.</p>
<p>Bunnytrails</p>
<p>I agree with all your points except </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;d.) Has clearly not found inspiration from the early Christians themselves via the writings of the Early Church Fathers.&#8221;  </p></blockquote>
<p>Who are these early church fathers you are referring to?</p>
<blockquote><p>one cannot find a single passage that states that “the written Word alone, and not tradition also, is our sole authority for faith and practice.” </p></blockquote>
<p>Disagree.  What <strong>other </strong>litarature would you refer to for authority regarding your faith?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bunnytrails		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-16057</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bunnytrails]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-16057</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m back at university, so I don&#039;t have much time to chat unfortunately!

I read the arguments against tradition. It was a good article but forgets a few things...

1. Whenever the word &quot;scripture&quot; is mentioned in the new testament it refers to the old testament. There was no new testament as we have it today.

2. Jesus fulfills the Law perfectly and encourages his hearers to follow the teachings of the Old Covenant as his time had not yet come to liberate them - the traditions given by those in the seat of Moses was to be accepted and followed except when it transgresses Law i.e &quot;Corbin&quot; is in direct violation of &quot;Honour thy mother and father&quot;, and it is the one of the few examples other than divorce we have in scripture that Jesus criticizes.  

3. Also the role of teachers in this article is diminished as scripture is held to interpret itself. How can this be? If it is so then all Christians should be on the same page. Human frailty and sin darkens the mind. Most people do not know how to think aright as it is. Would you trust a plumber with your brain surgery?

4. There are historical discrepancies: 

a.) The author seems to think that all scripture was available freely and liberally, which is not the case. Some Christian communities didn&#039;t even have the Gospels, while some had the letters of Paul, and others only has teachers who were disciples of the apostles. There was no xerox machines unfortunately.
b.) Seems to have little understanding of Jewish customs and the role of tradition in the Judaic and early - Christian traditions.
c.) Jesus and in fact his apostles have quoted the rabbinical traditions, contrary to the authors article.
d.) Has clearly not found inspiration from the early Christians themselves via the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

5. Finally the Church has never called tradition (which comprises of interpretation of scripture etc.) higher than Written tradition, nor has it claimed the ability to &quot;create truth&quot;. She is merely defender and safeguard to the entire Gospel. Particularly against the heresies.

In summery: I enjoyed the article and liked the genuine tone and particularly this part:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In summary, one cannot find a single passage that states that “the written Word alone, and not tradition also, is our sole authority for faith and practice.” At the same time, what must also be admitted is that repeatedly, the Old Testament writers, Jesus, and the apostles, turn to the Scriptures as their measuring stick, and commend the same to any and all that would follow them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In essence he was giving his opinion on the subject and will find many who share his views that will agree or even disagree. One can never be sure. And that is the problem.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m back at university, so I don&#8217;t have much time to chat unfortunately!</p>
<p>I read the arguments against tradition. It was a good article but forgets a few things&#8230;</p>
<p>1. Whenever the word &#8220;scripture&#8221; is mentioned in the new testament it refers to the old testament. There was no new testament as we have it today.</p>
<p>2. Jesus fulfills the Law perfectly and encourages his hearers to follow the teachings of the Old Covenant as his time had not yet come to liberate them &#8211; the traditions given by those in the seat of Moses was to be accepted and followed except when it transgresses Law i.e &#8220;Corbin&#8221; is in direct violation of &#8220;Honour thy mother and father&#8221;, and it is the one of the few examples other than divorce we have in scripture that Jesus criticizes.  </p>
<p>3. Also the role of teachers in this article is diminished as scripture is held to interpret itself. How can this be? If it is so then all Christians should be on the same page. Human frailty and sin darkens the mind. Most people do not know how to think aright as it is. Would you trust a plumber with your brain surgery?</p>
<p>4. There are historical discrepancies: </p>
<p>a.) The author seems to think that all scripture was available freely and liberally, which is not the case. Some Christian communities didn&#8217;t even have the Gospels, while some had the letters of Paul, and others only has teachers who were disciples of the apostles. There was no xerox machines unfortunately.<br />
b.) Seems to have little understanding of Jewish customs and the role of tradition in the Judaic and early &#8211; Christian traditions.<br />
c.) Jesus and in fact his apostles have quoted the rabbinical traditions, contrary to the authors article.<br />
d.) Has clearly not found inspiration from the early Christians themselves via the writings of the Early Church Fathers.</p>
<p>5. Finally the Church has never called tradition (which comprises of interpretation of scripture etc.) higher than Written tradition, nor has it claimed the ability to &#8220;create truth&#8221;. She is merely defender and safeguard to the entire Gospel. Particularly against the heresies.</p>
<p>In summery: I enjoyed the article and liked the genuine tone and particularly this part:</p>
<blockquote><p>In summary, one cannot find a single passage that states that “the written Word alone, and not tradition also, is our sole authority for faith and practice.” At the same time, what must also be admitted is that repeatedly, the Old Testament writers, Jesus, and the apostles, turn to the Scriptures as their measuring stick, and commend the same to any and all that would follow them.</p></blockquote>
<p>In essence he was giving his opinion on the subject and will find many who share his views that will agree or even disagree. One can never be sure. And that is the problem.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Amanda		</title>
		<link>https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/25/vatican-ii-and-the-new-evangelization-world-wide-take-over/#comment-14043</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amanda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.discerningtheworld.com/?p=7945#comment-14043</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bunnytrails

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.gravatar.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here you go.&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bunnytrails</p>
<p><a target="_blank" href="http://en.gravatar.com/"  rel="nofollow">Here you go.</a></p>
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