The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes

Angus buchan - Faith like Potatoes

The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes

(ORIGINAL AND MOST UPDATED VERSION) It has taken me about 4 weeks to research Angus Buchan, author of ‘Faith like Potatoes’.  (This was last year 2008 when I wrote this, I had to delete my blog soon after writing this article because of threats – This article is back online now with a few updates). It’s been a long 4 weeks for me. I’ve read his website and newsletters and a book or two, and read over a hundred people say on blogs etc., that he preaches ‘repentance and Jesus Christ’. People are flocking from all over the country to attend his conferences, the two I will mention for now is the Mighty Men Conference in Greytown where 60,000 men pitched tent on a farm and Loftus Rugby Stadium in Pretoria where an approximate 71,000 people came to hear Angus Buchan speak.

When I saw the photo’s of the Mighty Men Conference I could not believe what I was seeing – it really did tug at my heart strings and my eyes welled up with tears. However the first thing that came to my mind was ‘Promise Keepers’ and the Holy Spirit telling me something is wrong.  Promise Keepers is a Masonic Word of Faith organisation that men and only men must come together and make a change for Christ. Then I received photos of Loftus and I had another heart tugging moment, but again the Holy Spirit said to me that something is not right. So off I went to research Angus Buchan. Boy was that only difficult – there is hardly any information about this man, except little excerpts on his ‘faith like potatoes’ book and movie. I put off my research for another day. Mainly because I truly wanted to believe that Angus Buchan is a genuine man of God, that he does preach true repentance and points to the Cross and Jesus Christ and NOT another gospel and another Jesus Christ. The tug on my heart strings had become a spiritual tug o’ war instead. I was reminded over and over again of what the Word of God says about the last days.

Loftus Versveld Stadium (71,000 people)

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Mighty Men Conference 2008 (60,000 thousand men)

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Absa Stadium 2008   (40,000+ people)

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I took this photo – it started to rain

Mighty Men Conference 2009  (200,000 + men showed up this year)

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Blowing of the Shofar – Hebrew Roots movement

This is going to be a very long article, please read the whole thing, then I urge you to go to your Bible and search the scriptures, study the Word of God and find yourself approved –

2 Timothy 2:15:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

Let those who love the truth hear the truth through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in your life.

First things first, before I get into anything else, I want to address the matter of Revival for this is the crux of Angus Buchan  teachings.

Angus Buchan mentions revival many times:

  1. “Indeed we are living in a time of revival!” [1]
  2. “We are not praying for revival anymore, we believe that we are in revival!” [2]
  3. “My dear friends, we are in REVIVAL at the moment!” “and to ask Him to bring revival to our beloved Southern Africa.” [3]
  4. “We know that we are in revival now.” [4]
  5. “The good news is revival is here and we are part of this” [5]
  6. “We are really living in revival!” “God move in awesome miraculous ways in revival time” “Well I want to tell you that you are the revival” [6]
  7. “…and really trusting God for revival in their area” [7]
  8. “We know once again that we are in revival in South Africa!”  ” We are seeing revival in South Africa” [8]

Angus Buchan mentions many times that we are indeed living in the end times:

  1. “Even as we see things culminating, we believe that we are living in the last days. I know that we have said that for some time, but we can see that all the signs are there now and it is very exciting, because the Bible says that if Christ be for us, who can stand against us. Rom.8:31 [2]
  2. “I believe that we are in the last days and God is rallying His troops for the last battle.” [3]
  3. “The Lord has prompted me to share His intentions for His men in these last days” [5]

So we can clearly see that Angus Buchan believes wholeheartedly that we are in revival and he believes that were are clearly living in the last days as well. Is there anything out of the ordinary with his thinking?  Well…yes! I say yes because in the Word of God, Jesus spoke of the last days and gave us many warnings as to what is going to transpire. And it’s not all faith like potatoes. Jesus said there will be many false prophets rising up, deceiving many, leading many astray to a false gospel and a false Christ. Jesus warned us of three things: False Christ’s, false prophets and false signs and wonders.

Matthew 24:3-6  3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.”

  • Note: ‘I am the Christ’  or “Christed”, the word Christ means anointed (one)“.

2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.”

  • Note: So first before the man of lawlessness is revealed we as Christians will face an apostasy, a great falling away from genuine faith in Jesus Christ to another Gospel that appears to be biblical but is not – hence the words, deceive and deception. It comes packaged in a nice pretty big box with a big ribbon on top, but inside lurks something sinister – you are being conditioned to accept the anti-Christ.

1 Timothy 4:1  1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

  • Note: Deception is just that, deception; it means you won’t be able to tell the wood from the trees UNLESS you adhere to the truth in the Bible. Anyone who says they are can’t be deceived is already deceived. People will listen to and follow men who preach a gospel that sounds so Biblical but yet at the same time their gospel is deceitful, and who is the greatest deceiver? Satan, the father of lies.

2 Timothy 3: 1,12-13  1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. … 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. [Adhere to the Word of God] 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

  • Note: Day by day, week by week, year by year, the deception will get worse and worse. We are truly in the last days. South Africa has been very sheltered from the deception that has wrought American Christianity. I would say that 90% of South Africa has no clue as to what has been going on, yet at the same time we have been subtly introduced to false teachers over the years and the Christian book stores (CUM bookstores) are filled to the brim with books and DVDs that preach another gospel and point to another Jesus. We have been deceived and we didn’t even know it. We have been deceived because we just take for granted that what we are being taught is correct without TESTING to see if it’s true. We have slowly but surely over the years been manipulated to accept ear tickling sermons and books by well known preachers that sound Biblical but yet contains a poisonous stream of unsound teachings. This poisonous stream that has infiltrated the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is growing larger and larger each year, in so much that it’s now a strong flowing river, drowning out the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Luke 17:20-21  “Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, “Look, here it is! or There!”  for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

  • This poison is as follows: Revival in the end times accompanied with signs and wonders (healings, signs in the sky etc, transferable anointings, contemplative prayer, angels, restoring of Apostles and Prophets (5 fold ministry) and the acceptance of extra Biblical revelation or new prophecy that does not come from the bible etc. They preach repentance and Jesus Christ and speak of His Blood, but the repentance is not true repentance and the Christ they speak of is not Jesus Christ for they do not adhere to the whole Truth.   Isaiah 8 v 20: “To the law and to the testimony if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”
  • We do not have to establish a Kingdom of God on this earth through revival or try usher in the Kingdom of God on this earth through ‘revival’ because the Kingdom of God is already among us. It’s Jesus Christ!! Anyone who is attempting to usher in the Kingdom of God in the last days denies the fact that Jesus Christ is the ‘Kingdom of God’ and He is already here, in the Written Word of God (Bible) for Jesus Christ is the Word.    John 1 v 1; “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11  “9  that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

  • Note: The warning from God for the last days is very clear – love the Truth, the Word of God and you will not succumb to deception.
  • The last days are riddled with signs and wonders that encompass healing and people supposedly raised from the dead etc. But when these ministers are asked for verifiable proof of these wondrous things that have taken place they can’t provide a single bit of solid evidence. Some of them are brazen enough to have videos on their websites showing healings that have taken place – the blind see, pain is removed, cancer cured, etc. Yet no contact details are provided for the people who were healed so that we, you or anyone else can follow-up to see if they were genuinely healed or if it was it just psychological (they thought they were but turned out later they were not), has the sickness come back, what has happened to them since? Did they receive another illness in its place, or worse – what has happened to their spiritual lives; are they now finding themselves diving head first into greater deceptive doctrines because their healing was in exchange for something far worse, a demonic affliction? Of course Satan can heal – he is not dividing his kingdom if he takes away an illness and gives you something worse instead – something that will cause you to follow him instead of Jesus Christ.
  • So what’s it going to be? Illness or a good chance of losing your salvation? Which one would you rather have? No one likes to be sick, we all know this. But guess who also knows this…yes, Satan. Sickness is one of his greatest playing cards. He knows most people will accept ‘almost’ anything to be free from illness.

I will speak more on healings a little bit later in this article as healings seem to play a part in Angus Buchan ministry, but for now I want to get back to Angus Buchan and some other things he has said.

Angus Buchan, huge crowds and signs in the sky

So, what is it about Angus Buchan and his ‘ability’ to draw such huge crowds? What is it that Angus Buchan actually preaches? Why is there very little information about what he really preaches – everyone has to go on ‘hear say’.  For instance, “someone told me that he preaches repentance and Jesus Christ” or, “I heard from someone that a sign appeared above one of his gatherings which was witnessed by thousands of people – A heart shaped 3D cloud formed in a relatively clear blue sky – only God would do that, therefore Angus Buchan is truly a man of God.”  Stop…say that again? A sign appeared in the sky of a heart shaped cloud and this now validates that he is truly a man of God? Did I say stop? Yes I did. Stop and listen South Africa – listen and understand what the Word of God says to a generation who seeks after signs and wonders.

Matthew 12:39   3 But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign…

So off I went to research again, here is what Angus Buchan had to say in a newsletter:

“Greetings, in Jesus’s precious name. I have recently returned from the Izak Steyl Stadium in Vanderbijlpark. I really want to thank God for Jurie Cilliers and his team (too many to mention), who did an outstanding job in organising this meeting. We saw 35,000+ men, women and children come to the stadium, starting at 11am. When I started speaking at 4pm, the place was absolutely pregnant with the presence of the Holy Spirit. I just thank God for what He did. We even had a sign! The people were pointing into the sky while I was preaching and I thought maybe a microlight had flown past, but there was a heart-shaped cloud in the sky above the stadium – awesome confirmation, again, from our precious Saviour that He was there in our midst![Emphasis added]

 width=Angus Buchan said, again?   I’ll get back that that one in a moment. Anyhow Angus Buchan says, ‘Awesome confirmation’ – actually no Angus, for Jesus says,

2 Thessalonians 2:9  “…the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders…

So we can clearly see that a sign is not confirmation that it comes from God for Satan can make a heart shaped cloud as well.

How do we then tell ‘who’ made the sign appear.

Well we need to examine the words of the man Angus Buchan to see if what he says lines up with the Word of God – if it contradicts, then we know that the sign was not from God – for God will never give a sign to endorse words spoken that contradict His Word.  Angus Buchan says something interesting though, in one of his newsletters he says;  “May the Lord bless you as you continue to walk by faith and not by sight.” [5] (Emphasis added)

So why did you say what you said above Angus, that the sign in the sky was an ‘awesome confirmation’ when we walk by faith and not by sight? Is it because this is actually what you believe: signs and wonders?

But that was not the first sign, (hence the ‘again’ in Angus Buchan ‘s comment above) another one appeared over the Mighty Men Conference in April 2007…here is what Angus Says, “

 width=“I was recently sent a photograph taken at the Mighty Men Conference that we held at Shalom in April 2007, which shows a white light coming down out of a dark sky, descending upon and spreading out over the tent. I can only describe it as looking like hot butter melting and spreading over the tent.

I have not yet personally met Bruno, the man who took the photograph; he comes from Phalaborwa, a town in the northern part of South Africa. He wept when he first saw the photograph and he was reluctant to send it to me because he wasn’t sure what my reaction would be. I choose to believe it was the Glory of God over the tent, which was full to capacity., numbering seven thousand men. We had been speaking about the Light of God, about the Glory of God’s presence at that time”– Angus Buchan [10] (Emphasis added)

That’s odd; the man in Phalaborwa was reluctant to send him the photo because he was not sure what Angus Buchan ‘s reaction would be? What was this man worried about? What was he expecting Angus Buchan to say;  ‘Do not follow signs and wonders for they do not validate my ministry, for the Word of God spoken in truth is what validates that what I am preaching is of God?’  Nope! When Angus Buchan does see the photo, “he chooses to believe” it was the Glory of God over the tent for they had been speaking about the ‘Light of God’. Wow! He chooses to believe? No testing the spirits as per 1 John, just believe. So again Angus Buchan comment above that says “May the Lord bless you as you continue to walk by faith and not by sight contradicts what Angus Buchan actually believes. He expects signs and wonders to follow him where ever he goes and will never denounce them. And by printing this in his book, ‘A Mustard Seed – A Daily Devotional’, he is telling you just that, that we need to trust him, because signs and wonders accompany his teachings, therefore he is a ‘man of God’.

Dominionism / Kingdom Now theology

As per above, AngusBuchan speaks of revivalin the last days, where the Word of God says the opposite. Who do we believe? The lie of revival in the last days that will lead millions astray to false doctrine, or the Word of God that says you must hold fast to His Word and the Truth pray because things are going to get bad, really bad in the end times. And the only hope we have is to rely on Him no matter how bad it gets.

The faith that Angus Buchan speaks of is an ear tickling faith of Dominionism or Kingdom Now theology – “take South Africa back for God so that Christ can return to a world that eagerly awaits Him.”  Angus Buchan doctrine states that, God wants you to be happy, He wants you to be healthy, He wants you to prosper, He wants you to have a wonderful future.  Nope, I’m sorry Angus; God never promised us any of this.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:22  “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” and

2 Timothy 3:12 “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” and

John 16:33 ” These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. “

Being hated does not bring happiness or prosperity or allow us to take dominion of the world in preparation for Christs’s return.  What happiness does God promise us? That we will have peace and be of good cheer because we are saved by the blood of the Lamb and Jesus Christ gives us the strength, Jesus gives us the strength to carry on while we live in a world of evil, no matter if we end up in jail for preaching the Gospel or being martyred because we refuse to follow another god.

Angus Buchan says,  “However, things are getting so critical now, that everything else seems to be fading into insignificance when it come to talking about eternal issues, things like a man’s soul, his family, his marriage, his business and his future, not to mention his nation” [1]

Since when does family, marriage, your business, your future (while you are still alive) and this nation fall into the same critical category of individual salvation? When you die you can’t take your family, business or your money and your country you live and love so much in with you – it’s gone!

Angus Buchan says, “I would really encourage you to continue to let your expectation for your life, for your family, for your country, for your vision, to come only from God.” [4]

Confused Faith

Faith is not what God can do for you, but what you can do for Him! It’s about preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ.  Your salvation and the salvation of those around you is the only thing on this earth we need to worry about! real repentance of sin, accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour that He died on the cross and shed His Blood so that you may be saved, the baptism of the Holy Spirit (and that does not mean speaking in tongues or having someone lay hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit), striving to live a holy life through the conviction of sin in your life by the Holy Spirit that when you do sin you repent.

Angus Buchan says, ” It is only the faithful that will overcome Rom.1:17 ‘The just (righteous) will live by faith’. As we see trouble brewing up in every area, politically, financially, morally, we know that we will succeed as the children of promise. [5]  (Emphasis added)

Hebrew Roots Movement: 

Another error;  They attribute promises to Israel to the church. The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. The only promise we have as spiritual children of Abraham is that of salvation (Galatians 3:11).  Angus Buchan’s ministry is called Shalom Ministries and has a Tabernacle on his premises

“…We will be staging it open air because we are concerned about the seating capacity in the tabernacle [at Shalom Ministries]” [5]

Angus Buchan has an infatuation with Israel, like all Pentecostal/Charismatics/New Apostolic’s do. And once again the faith he preaches is in order to ‘get something’: success politically, financially, morally etc   [Note: Dominionist’s like to substitute the word ‘morals’ with ‘Kingdom Values’]

A few months ago I bought a book by C. Peter Wagner called, “Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World”.  He says;

“Christians understand that their Kingdom values should penetrate all spheres of their personal lives, their families, their businesses, their political lives and the rest” [9]  (Emphasis added)

Sound familiar to what Angus Buchan says?   Hmmm, familiar is not really the word, more like identical.  These spheres are actually called the 7 Mountains of culture by the New Apostolic Reformation.  These 7 mountains are the areas of the world they need to take control of in order to rule the world:  business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, the family and religion.

As per C. Peter Wagner and his agents:  Rick Joyner, John Arnott,  Cindy Jacob’s, etc., they are trying to build an army of Christians (taken from a horrendous misinterpretation of Joel 2 – also called Joel’s army) who are going to take the earth back for Christ. Now most of these preachers in America who follow this idea of thinking, stem from The Vineyard Christian Fellowship who started the Toronto Blessing etc, and then came Lakeland with Todd Bentley.

Dominionism and the Roman Catholic Church

I have read a lot of South African websites that seem to preach the idea of this generation being something special and promote the raising up of army of Christians that will be mighty for God (based on Joel 2) – The youth are their greatest focus for they are the least discerning.  And parents are just happy to know their kids are going to church, but don’t realise they are being indoctrinated into a very unbiblical and scary doctrine of Dominionism.

When I email the owners/pastors of these sites to find out if they believe in Kingdom Now teaching or Restoration teaching most of them say no, some of them say “not all”, that they don’t like those American preachers because most of them are heretical nuts and money grabbers but when questioned most allude to this: they say they have received a vision or prophecy from ‘God’ or someone that prophesied dover them that says the same thing that the heretical nuts and money grabbers are saying. Now we have to ask, what’s wrong with this picture? How can people who proclaim to be true Christians get visions/prophecies that are exactly the same as the people who proclaim New Age teachings?

So I need to pose this question to Angus, why are you promoting Revival based on Latter Rain / Dominionist / Kingdom Now Theology that people who delve into occult teachings have had visions of too, and are trying to do the exact same thing you are? Better yet, why are you teaching a doctrine that falls in line with the plan of the Roman Catholic Church – they too are currently taking dominion of the earth, bringing all Christian denominations under the wings of the RCC mother church in expectation of the returning Christ.  They call themselves Christians and you do too, so who do we believe to be correct? Difficult question to answer Angus, since you both believe the exact same thing!

After doing a bit more research with regards to some of the other ministers who accompany Angus Buchan on some of his conferences I found the name Bennie Mostert. In March this year Angus Buchan and Bennie Mostert and a few others held a conference called the Daniel Conference at the NG Church in Morelatapark in Pretoria:

“Die Daniêlkonferensie vind plaas van 14 tot 16 Maart 2008 by NG Gemeente Moreletapark se Woodlandssentrum in Pretoria. Die sprekers is Angus Buchan, drs. Johan Smith en Bennie Mostert en di. Elza Meyer en Willem Badenhorst.” [11]   [Emphasis added]

So who is Bennie Mostert? And why I am bothering to mention his name? Well, because he confirms that Angus Buchan follows Dominionist teachings and has ties to either C. Peter Wagner and his associates.

The roll of NUPSA in South Africa

by Prof Johan Malan

“An organization promoting the cause of this strange spiritual warfare in South Africa is NUPSA- Network For United Prayer in Southern Africa, with Dr. Bennie Mostert as chairman. He is a supporter of Peter Wagner’s spiritual warfare methods, promotes Wagner’s books and is affiliated to Wagner’s World Prayer Centre. He also has great admiration for George Otis and his Transformations video.

NUPSA has also become involved with the teachings of the ministry of Cleansing Stream. This comprises the new approach of spiritual warfare, but predominantly on a personal level. The principles are the same – the blame for problems are shifted from an individual to the devil and his demons that must consequently be exorcised – even from Christians! Spiritual problems are therefore not traced back to the flesh (the old sinful nature) with its passions and desires, but transferred to the devil and his demons.

Cleansing Stream found its way from America to us. Among the leading people in this ministry is Jack Hayford and Dr. Scott Bauer from The Church on the Way, and Joy Dawson of YWAM. It is claimed that the Lord will clean his church with wonders of healing and deliverance that will destroy the works of the devil. The view of Cleansing Stream is that salvation is not enough to cleanse people from demonic bindings and that other steps are required for full deliverance. They base this theory on the threefold nature of man –  spirit, soul and body. According to them, only your spirit is made free at salvation; consequently demons may still hide themselves in your soul or body. You are then in need of spiritual warfare for full deliverance. According to them, you may also inherit demonic bonds, or curses, from your ancestors.

Of course, people helped by this ministry give wonderful testimonies. This is however not a valid argument to justify their ministry biblically. There are people making the same claims with regard to the blessings allegedly received from participation in the Toronto phenomenon or the Alpha course. In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 we read: “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” That is indeed the case.

Lesson nr. 9 from Cleansing Stream teaches intercessory warfare. This includes the discovery and identification of demons with the aid of “power encounters and spiritual mapping techniques, followed by exorcising them from the people (including Christians), buildings, and even whole cities and nations.” If this technique is so efficient, why does it need to be done repeatedly?

This ministry also promotes Word of Faith teachings by suggesting that there is power in our words: “Power is released through our tongue… every word that comes from my mouth is either a blessing or a curse.” Under the heading “Words” they say:” We can learn how the mouth of the prophet [that’s you] delivers him or herself.” This is a self-redemption teaching.

NUPSA uses the error of Cleansing Stream for their approach to small groups. They are working on national strategies for the spiritual cleansing of the country and to organize worship-marches to neighbouring countries.” [12]

When I attended the Absa Stadium in 2008 when Angus Buchan spoke I managed to speak to some of the spiritual warfare intercessors that were there.  They told me that before Angus Buchan or anyone else for that matter could speak they needed to cleanse the area of all demonic forces so that Angus ‘smessage would be well received by the audience and not be hindered by demonic entities blocking his message.  They said they walked around the stadium 8 times and did some other mumbo jumbo to ward off evil.   This is totally unscriptural.  No where in the bible did the Disciples run off and prepare the place for Jesus Christ to go and speak at with spiritual warfare.  Please, would someone find me a verse in the bible where the disciples walked around the grounds 8 times waving their little Jesus flags and packaged soil into a bag to spiritually ‘lay claim to the ground and make it holy’.  This is occult people.

New Apostolic Reformation

C. Peter Wagner commissioned Todd Bentley (proven false prophet and heretic) and supported him wholeheartedly during the Lakeland Revival. Todd Bentley who ran the Lakeland Revival (Fresh Fire Ministries) in Florida from April to July 2008 was raised up by the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) who consists of (amongst others): C. Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner (a confessed Knight of Malta Templar aka Freemason), Patricia King, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Che Ahn, Lou Engle, Bill Johnson, Cal Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Rodney Howard-Browne (founder of holy laughter movement), Kim Clement, Wendy and Rory Alec (owners of God TV), Jan and Jan (Trinity Broadcasting Network, TBN) , John Arnott, John Wimber, and pretty much everyone who thinks the Elijah List and it’s owner Steve Shultz are promoting biblical teachings when in fact they are nothing more than occultists/New Ager’s disguised as Christians.

Todd Bentley has been proved false over and over and over again, and exposed for being a liar, false prophet and charlatan – he departed from Lakeland shortly after being exposed by ABC nightline in July 2008 for running a money making racket also known as a healing ministry, except there were no genuine healings. Yet even after all this, C. Peter Wagner got on stage with Todd Bentley and a host of other liars and commissioned him by prophesying and decreeing over him verses in the bible that were meant for Jesus Christ only. The blasphemy that has taken place by the hands of these people is beyond comprehension, but still they preach and teach away to the undiscerning millions upon millions of people who are falling for it – are you one of them?

Winds in all directions

One of the biggest catch phrases (at the moment) of those who promote this diabolical teaching is, ‘Winds of Change/New Beginnings/New Wineskin’. They believe that God is moving in a new way, a new direction, change is coming, there is a new wine skin and that there are ‘winds of change’ blowing over the world,  i.e., revival.

“The winds of the Holy Spirit are coming, the winds of the Kingdom of God are coming, and the winds of change are coming to cities and nations around the world.” ….

“This is the day of outpouring, this is the day of revival, and this is the beginning days of revival and revivals. This revival is a fountainhead of revivals, is revival that prepares the way for other revivals to follow. This revival is a foundation of other revivals that come, the day has come that we will go from glory to glory, revival to revival and there will never be a moment without revival.”

“This is revival of divine healing, a revival of signs and wonders; this is a revival of anointing, and this is a revival of the power of God.”

“Restoration of signs and wonders has begun; the church will be covered with signs and wonders. This is a revival of anointing that church will be covered with rivers of the anointing. This revival is a restoration of revival!”

“What will follow this revival will be holiness and unity. Holiness will come by grace and of the heart, and unity of love, and unity of relationship will come.” [13] (Emphasis added)

[Note:  UnityALL religions/faiths uniting, joining hands under a false Christ – Unity in Diversity]

This is what Angus Buchan has to say in his 7 July Newsletter:

“Lord Jesus, how can we not believe in You? How can we doubt that you have caused winds of revival and repentance to blow over the whole of our country?” (Emphasis added)

The message preached today is all about what God can do for you, your family, your business, your nation, your health etc. It’s a direct attack on the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The sermons of old, most find unacceptable now-a-days because the ‘hell fire and brimstone’ sermons are just so not cool anymore, and we really don’t want to hear about the sin in our lives.  No we prefer the sermon where we only hear good, happy, positive things being preached, none of this negative stuff.  God will look after you and bless your little heart till it’s content no matter how sinful you are – and the crowd goes wild – AMENNNNNN they shout out.

Well I am sorry people, SIN is what drives a big thick wedge between you and God.  And the more you sin the wider the gap gets, and Satan rejoices. And I am not even talking about unbelievers here, I am taking about Christians. And if you don’t truly repent of your own individual sin through Jesus Christ, by getting on your knees in the privacy of your own bedroom then yes the day will come when you will find yourself standing before God and He says, ‘I don’t know you’!  (Matthew 7:22) .  We don’t like to hear this because it offends our minds and hearts, so we rather pack our pick nick baskets and go listen to someone who will tell us happy, pleasant things like how we can make our business more successful, our home life better just by having ‘faith and hope’ and if you have enough faith God will reward you with pleasantries in this life: health and wealth, and oh yes – you will take dominion of South Africa, make it a Christian country – all denominations in unity.

Hope and Faith

Oddly enough you can get similar results in your business or you home by attending motivational speaking conferences hosted by unbelievers. They speak of hope and faith too, either with the mention of a god (whichever one you follow) or they don’t mention one at all. When you walk out there you feel like you too can go climb Mt. Everest, anything seems possible. It’s called psychology and Angus Buchan  knows how to talk the talk, just like Joyce Meyer. Its psychology mixed with Biblical scripture or as I call it, ‘Biblical psychology’ also known as a load of hogwash that detracts one from the truth of the Bible.

Angus Buchan seems to have this thing for group repentance and repenting on behalf of others at his gatherings where it’s more of an emotional extravaganza than anything else. Being in the presence of thousands of people is very emotional and leads one to a false sense of faith, hope and repentance.  “Everyone close your eyes, lift your hands and say after me…”  is NOT true repentance. I was going to quote quite a few more of his ‘group repentance’ comments, but Shalom Ministries has update their website to a new website and 90% of what I have quoted above and what I was going to use has been removed, never the less the quote below is on his new website – you will have to create a login account to see it:

“I was so excited to see close on 100 first time commitments and literally the whole crowd repented before God and made a re commitment to Jesus.” [15] [Emphasis added]

UPDATED 2016: On Gateway news it talks of Sacred Assembly – a historic gathering of 50 000 Christians at the FNB Stadium, Soweto, November 19 2016 where Angus Buchan attended, it says regarding repentance, “We respect the government, because God put them in place, but we have come here to intercede and repent on behalf of the country, which is no longer walking in God’s ways.” (Emphasis added)

How on earth can you repent of someone else’s sin? One of the biggest concerns for me and many others is the ‘argument’ that is going around that, ‘many people, thousands of people are coming to Jesus because of Angus ‘s teachings – therefore what he is preaching is of God.”  The same argument was used for Todd Bentley’s revivals as well, that many were being ‘saved’ in Lakeland – yet the message Todd preached was laced in occult teaching about angels, portals, opening gates, opening the heavens, glory, false prophecies, etc. It’s all about the fruit I am told, if the fruit appears to look good then surely it must be good. Wrong.

Jesus said, in Matthew 7:16-20   16You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.”

It also says in Matthew 3:8  Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance…”

In other words, if the message preached by Angus Buchan or another other preacher contradicts the Word of God then the fruit that follows, the signs and wonders that follow can notbe from God – the fruit that is produced is bad fruit from a thorn tree. Looks good on the outside but rotten in the inside.  The same applies to those supposedly saved at these revivals. If the message preached is one that will lead you to accept a false Christ though Christian unity no matter what your faith, then by who’s name are these people being saved? It’s certainly not the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. It’s a false salvation.  And might I add that yes some people will find genuine salvation at these meetings for they seek the truth, that is Jesus Christ, their hearts are genuinely in the right place and when they repent of their sins they actually mean it ad they go home and change their ways.  And you will find when the they are born again the Holy Spirit will open their eyes to the false teaching that surrounds them.   But 95% of people will just follow, follow anything that sounds good, they will follow the false Christ that is presented to them for they do not care for the truth – their hearts are not really seeking Jesus Christ the Son of God, they seek worldly happiness and worldly wealth instead. They will go home and appear to be a changed man for few months to a year maybe more and then back to their old self they return.

Christian Unity

It’s all about Christian unity. Unite as Christians (no matter what you believe; be it Roman Catholic, Anglican, Latter Day Saints or Church of God (a branch off sect from 7th Day Adventists or even a Spiritualist) – (see 2nd snapshot below, then see last ‘church’ on the list). Just have faith and hope and ‘God’ will do wonderful things in this country and the rest of the world. You can witness the Christian unity first hand on Angus Buchan’s new website by going to sign up; there is a drop down list of churches of which you need to pick the one you belong too. The list is enormous. I have made snapshots of the drop down list so that it is cast in stone for all too see.

 width=

SNAPSHOT 1 

 width=SNAPSHOT 2

Click here to see all the ‘Church’s’ one can select on Angus’ list. (Spiritualists, Mormons (Latter Day Saints) and British/Anglo Israelites for example are included in the list)

Unity in Diversity

So as we can see, it does not matter what church you attend, what unscriptural doctrine your church follows, just as long as we all unite under the ‘Christ’ that is being presented to the world today. The Roman Catholics call it the Eucharist Christ and they have an ‘Evangelization program’ that TBN has bought into lock, stock and barrel – In fact TBN is Roman Catholic.  New Agers are awaiting their ‘Christ’ and are accepting the so called Christian revivals with open arms for it aligns to their beliefs as well. Buddhists await their ‘Christ’ and there is an astounding number of Christian Buddhists who have even been baptised in Christ’s name. Muslims are awaiting their ‘Christ’ too as more and more Muslims accept Roman Catholicism because the Virgin Mary is mentioned no less than 36 times in the Koran.  Muslims revere Mary.  Hindu’s await their ‘Christ’ as well, and we all know that Hindu’s will worship just about anything that comes in the form of a statue which includes the Mary The Blessed Mother of God.

These people I mentioned above (C Peter Wagner, John Wimber, et al.) belong to the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and so does Angus Buchan. The New Apostolic Reformation is also a part of an Ecumenical (or Emergent Church)  message that is New Age. – The NAR are just more sneakier and use terminology that is less Ecumenical. But there are Ecumenical tell tale signs within the Angus Buchan  camp, as you will see below.

Angus Buchan recently went to Ireland and preached to Protestants and Roman Catholics:

“This Sunday I will be in Durban and next week I go to Belfast, Northern Ireland to preach to the Protestants and the Roman Catholics and the whosoevers.” [3]

“We saw many healings, salvations and re-commitments and a stirring in the hearts of the Irish people.” … [16]

“At our meetings we had Catholics and Protestants together, surrendering their lives to Jesus Christ. It was a wonderful time of reconciliation.” [16]    (Emphasis added)

Re-commitments? To what? How can a Roman Catholic re-commit to Jesus Christ? I am sure the Pope is jumping with joy at this – a reconciliation of all faiths to one Christ. So we now have Protestants and Catholics accepting a false Christ or re-committing to their false Christ, going back to their respective churches, never denouncing their heretical beliefs that go against the Word of God and repenting and thinking themselves ‘saved’. Great, I feel so much more at ease now.

Everything is ’emerging’:  Roman Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Islam and Christians

God TV and TBN:

Angus Buchan  is promoted heavily by God TV and TBN- the two biggest promoters of false prophets, liars, charlatans and blasphemers on this earth. Wendy Alec owner of God TV prophesied that Jesus was going to physically show up on Todd Bentley’s stage on the 8th June 2008 – of course this never happened. (click here for false prophecy by Wendy Alec, God TV amongst other things). And Paul Crouch and his wife Jan share an ecumenical bed with the Pope.  There are hundreds of books on the TBN online bookstore that promote Roman Catholicism, Mary the Queen of Heaven, Rosaries, the Eucharist Christ, etc.

“The GOD TV channel will be broadcasting the event LIVE to all their viewers throughout the world, starting from 2.30pm SA time. They tell me that they have access to a viewership of approximately 500 million people (amazing)!” (Emphasis added)

“I’m also on TV, recorded each week here on the farm and then broadcast every week on TBN, CTV and the Rhema Channel.” (Emphasis added)

Angus Buchan and his Healing Ministry:

“On Sunday, we had a healing service at Shalom …” 2nd July 2008. [15]

Angus Buchan  then spearheads this notion of signs and wonders accompanying him even further when again he writes in his book, ‘Jesus…a Farmer…and Miracles’:

“And they went out and preached everywhere the Lord working with them and confirming the Word through the accompanying signs. Amen. Mark 16. v20. People knew that Jesus was God because of the miralces [sic] He performed. However, that was not His motive for healing the sick or setting the captives free. Jesus had “compassion” for the sick and the hurting. So much so that He wept at the tomb of Lazarus when He saw the family grieving. Anyone desiring to be used by our Lord for Divine Healing must have a heart for those who suffer because Jesus uses hearts and hands and compassion to heal the sick. Mark 16 v20. [10] (Emphasis added)

So all you need is compassion and a desire to be used by the Lord….hmmm, does not matter if what you preach contradicts the Bible.

This quote above is not the first time I have heard Angus Buchan  speaking about his healing ministry.

The problem with Angus Buchan’shealing ministry etc, is that these signs were only given to the Apostles. Those who had the great task of taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations, the power given to them was to confirm the message they had to deliver. They then wrote the message down, which became the Word of God to us, God’s final Word to us – with no one adding to it and no one taking away from it. These men were given great power for they had the most difficult task ahead of them – they were imprisoned, beaten, tortured and martyred in the most dreadful of ways.  Does that mean healing and miracles don’t happen any more?  Of course not.  Go to Jesus Christ directly in prayer and if it’s His will you will be healed.  God to Jesus Christ directly in prayer to be delivered from smoking, alcoholism etc.   Go to Jesus Christ directly in prayer with all your problems.  We go to Jesus Christ directly in prayer!  So many people believe that they don’t have enough faith to be healed so they need to go find a middle man (the faith healer) who has oodles of faith and that will surely bring on a healing from God.  No, my dear friends, it doesn’t work like this.

“The new message delivered by the Apostles was confirmed by these signs. Once the message was written down, the signs ceased to be the confirming agent and the Bible confirms itself.” [17]

Satan’s greatest lie is to convince you that the ‘gift of healing to a selected person’ still plays a major role in the church today, this is not true.

Does God heal? Of course He does!  But not at the hands of a man who claims he has a ‘gift of healing’ or healings form part of his ministry. I know personally and have heard of people who were truly healed by God – they approached Jesus Christ in personal prayer and God chose to heal them.  And yes people can pray for you to be healed but that does not mean God will heal you. It is God who makes the final decision in the end. He has His reasons for everything He does.

Ultimately ones salvation is more important that being healed. Are you so willing to take a chance on your spiritual life by going to a man who supposedly heals people in Jesus’ name just for the sake of not being ill while still on earth? I hope not.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE:  The bible tells you to not allow people to lay hands on you.  Demons are transferred from one person to another very easily in this manner.

1 Timothy 5:22  “Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.”

Jesus Christ of the Bible and the Christ of the New Age

Please read and understand this verse, many people just read it, but never grasp what is actually being said – it’s like water on a ducks back to most.

Matthew 7:21-23  21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?‘ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Just because someone uses the name of Jesus and perform miracles does not mean he is of God – quite the contrary.

Prosperity:

Lastly before I end, I want to talk about prosperity. Many Christians follow the Pentecostal/Word of Faith/Apostolic Prophetic etc., movement that has over taken our churches and ultimately led us to where we are today – mass apostasy.   All will agree that God wants to prosper us and will use the Bible and pull out verses to try back up their claims. I am going to now show you who this earth and its glory (riches) belongs too.  Our riches are with Jesus in Heaven; in receiving eternal life, for those who accept Him as the Son of God and believe.  Yes God does look after His children, He gives us what we NEED and some Christians are wealth, however our riches are not on this earth.

Luke 4:5-8  5 And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours. 8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”

Satan who is god of this world owns all the wealth of this world, you wan’t wealth you get it from him.  Be careful what you ask for, Satan can’t wait to help you out with all the riches in the world.

Faith like Potatoes, the book and movie:

I had actually watched the video about +/- 4 years ago at a company I worked for. We were made to watch it as part of a team building exercise. Funnily enough, everyone found the movie inspirational;  from those interested in New Age Spiritualism, Hindus, right down to the last Muslim were emotionally affected by the movie – yet no one got saved.

We had a discussion afterwards on how to take the ‘principles’ given in this movie and apply them to our lives and our workplace, no mention of Jesus Christ and repentance of sin, just ‘learn and apply’, it was all about living a ‘good life’ and ‘accepting’ everyone around you no matter what they believed.  I was so unimpressed with the movie that I actually forgot all about it, until years later I received an email on the Mighty Men Conference that mentioned Angus Buchan. I thought, “Who is this man, and why does ‘Faith like Potatoes’ sound so familiar?” I let the photo’s of the filled stadiums overtake my logic; as I said above, I really wanted to believe he was the real deal. But through intensive research it is clear that all is not what it appears to be.

Quotes below taken from here by Shaun Willcock (biblebasedministries.co.uk). I encourage you to go read the full article by Shaun.

“In September 2006 a new religious movie premiered in South Africa, called Faith Like Potatoes.I say a religious movie rather than a Christian movie, because although it claims to be based on the life story of South African farmer and Charismatic evangelist Angus Buchan, it is not a biblically sound Christian film.”  

“According to one reviewer, “The film depicts some incredible miracles that God accomplishes through and around Angus. Perhaps, the most awe-inspiring part of the film is the point when, through the prayer of Angus Buchan, God raises to life a farm worker who had been struck dead by lightning” (Africa Christian Action film review).”   (Emphasis added)

[Note:  Todd Bentley claimed 32 people raised from the dead during the Lakeland Outpouring, unfortunately for him every one of these claims was proven false, and not one person came forward to help him verify his claims.  Yet he continued to lie to the millions of people following him, telling them it was true. They believed his every word; Todd could not put a foot wrong with those who desperately wanted to experience God.]

Quotes continued from biblebasedministries.co.uk:

“…Frank Rautenbach, the actor who plays the part of Angus Buchan and who had previously starred in a South African soap opera, said: “It was of paramount importance to me that we should make a real movie and not a “religious” one…. the most attractive thing to me about this role was the message of hope that the movie brings. Hope in spite of the difficulties of life.

“A truly Christian movie would not simply bring a “message of hope”. It would uncompromisingly bring the message of hope in Christ!”

“When the movie premiered in South Africa, it was reported that it did so to a ‘star-studded line-up’, the  who’s who of South African actors, movie-makers, entertainers, sports people, Christian leaders, and musicians.” Just one question arises here: Why? Why was this important to the movie’s producers? Why was it relevant at all? This is merely following the ways of the world, playing to the gallery, glorying in the world of showbiz.” (Emphasis added)

Mark 13:12-13;  “12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 “You will be hated by ALL because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These words above are Jesus’ words. The real Jesus Christ that you barely hear preached today is hated, the counterfeit Jesus preached today…everyone loves. This is why ‘faith like potatoes’ is nota Christian movie, because everyone finds it acceptable!!!

New Apostolic Reformation…and it’s obsession with the Hebrew Calendar and Numbers (part of the Hebrew Roots Movement)

Taken from here – Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper

“Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper believes with thousands of others, that the year 2008 (the number ‘8’ has the significance of New Beginnings in the Bible) is a turning point for South Africa. With Angus Buchan, we proclaim in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, that there is hope for our country.” (Emphasis added)

[Update:  Die Erdekruik/The Vessel newspaper printed the 2 page newspaper at the Absa 2008 gathering in which Kobus Van Rensburg received quite a bit of advertising space.]

Taken here from the Elijah List – a prophecy by C. Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs, and many others: Word of the Lord for 2008 and Beyond

“2008: The Year to Possess the Gates…This year the Holy Spirit keyed off of the number “8” to us. The number 8 represents new beginnings. God wants us to go through new doors (or gates) to go to a new level in everything we do. The Lord cautioned us that while many want to experience the new wine (i.e., new moves of God), there are some who want to “wear their old robes,” or that which is comfortable to them, into this new season of time. This will not work. It is critical that we all are willing to give up old practices, structures, and the influence of relationships that tie us to the old if they refuse to allow us to move into the new things.” (Emphasis added)

[Note: These people that C. Peter Wagner is referring too, who wear old robes and refuse to give up old practices, are those who hold onto scripture for dear life and refuse to follow their New Age Spiritual utterances.]

So once again we have South Africans speaking the same message that false prophets like C. Peter Wagner and his diabolical agents Rick Joyner et al. are promoting…how is this possible?  Because it’s not biblical!

I truly pray that after reading this article, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and your eyes are opened as to what is going on in South Africa and the deception that has risen is not something to be taken lightly.  This has been planned I believe…planned by the New Apostolic Reformation, through visions and prophecy given by none other than Satan himself. Why do I say so? Here is why…

 “There is great prophetic interest in South Africa and its southern coastline from international circles. The major reason for this is because of the many prophecies that have gone out about the latter rain move of God that is to erupt from South Africa and spread into the nations.

The well-known prophet, Rick Joyner, visited Cape Town, South Africa in July 2004, and during a powerful prophetic conference on 22 July 2004, said that God is about to reveal powerful hidden ministries that are centered along the southern coastline of South Africa.[Emphasis added]  –link no longer on internet

Angus Buchan’s ministry fits their prophecy perfectly, however Angus Buchan  is notthe only one, he is only the start of what is yet to come. He is just a puppet on a string.

Conclusion

We are truly in the LAST DAYS. Watch and Pray! Be on Guard at all times, adhere to the Word of God at all times – question, test and weight all things to the Word of God before you deem it to be correct. Do not be swindled into accepting things just because we need to believe by faith and accept every message that comes our way no matter how Biblical it may seem – test it first! And remember experience and emotions do not validate that what is spoken or what manifests (signs and wonders) are from God.

The number of Wolves out number the Sheep.

While I am at it here is the correct interpretation of 2 Chronicles 7:14 seeing as though this is the verse so miss-used by these people to do nothing but deceive.

2 Chronicles 7:14  “14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”

This verse is for Israel and Israel only. If they humbled themselves and sought after God through prayer, longing for Him and repenting of their wicked ways, God would forgive them of their sin and heal their land.   However!  Every verse in the Bible applies to every individual person who has a personal spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ His Son and the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit which leads to repentance of sin in our own lives – of which repentance is an ongoing part of one’s relationship with Jesus.

You do not repent on behalf of others lives, or your next door neighbor, the government, or an entire nation for that matter.  The ‘heal their land’ in this verse means that if you personally seeks after God, humble yourself, genuinely repent of your sin (wicked ways) and actually change your ways;  God will hear you, forgive you and He will save you, and bring you back into a relationship with Him.   As for “physical land” – this applies to ancient and modern day Israel only.

For God to heal an entire nation in this day and age because a few thousand people got together and repented on behalf of others in this country is ludicrous to say the least. The Bible clearly states that in the last days everyone will follow a false Christ and turn away from genuine teaching. And it’s happening right before your own eyes..  It also clearly states that when the world seeks peace and reconciliation, it’s all a lie.  It’s a false peace and false reconciliation to a false Christ.  The Bible says:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.  4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

So when the world cries for peace and unity and being one global community, so then starts the beginnings of the coming of the Tribulation.  It will overcome those who are unbelievers, who refuse the truth.  But the brethren (those who are truly born again) can see what is clearly taking place for they love the truth of God’s Word and we will notbe surprised when the lies of world peace and the lies of the anti-Christ turns into death and destruction.  I am not one bit surprised right now and I know that many other genuine Christians out there are not one bit surprised either, and we can’t be silent and need to warn with long-suffering.

But the message for us (the true Body of Christ) in God’s Word is too not worry, too not fear, for He will look after us – Jesus is coming to Rapture His bride before the Tribulation starts.  He also tells us to watch and pray and be prepared spiritually at all times.  And being prepared does not mean growing organic food, or climbing to the tops of mountains to seek spiritual refuge.


Updated: 

  • 28 August 2008
  • 9 May 2009:  Absa Stadium, Mighty Men Conference 2009, Image of Mustard Seed – A Daily Devotional book
  • 28 May 2009:  Correction in formatting and typo’s plus extra Biblical verses with explanations.
  • 9 April 2010:  Link added to list of ‘denominations’ one can select on Shalom Ministries website.
  • 30 April 2010:  Heading “A strange comment by Angus Buchan on his website” should have said “A strange verse by Angus on his website”  with explanation.
  • 19 August 2012 –  NAR Invasion of SA – Rick Joyner, Angus Buchan, Danie Slabbert, Nevil Norden @ Apostolic Prophetic Conference – July 2012
  • 18 December 2016 – added new quote from Gateway magazine regarding praying for others sins.

References:

  • [Please note that [1-8] do no longer work as Shalom Trust Ministries website was revamped and most of the newsletters posted by Angus Buchan have been removed]
  • [10-11] url removed from the internet
  • [13-17] url removed from the internet
  • [9] C. Peter Wager – Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World, 2008. pg 16.
  • [12] http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Transformations.htm
  • [13] http://watchmenview.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
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Deborah (Discerning the World)

Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article. Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.

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Elmarie A

Harry

The same as what happened to the Muslim man I laid my hands on and God healed. The same with numerous others. Please do not twist my words now and say I claim to heal and save, I do it in the name of Jesus. He gets the glory, I am the vessel.

Did the Muslim man convert to Chrisianity by any chance. Have you seen him again? Did you offer to heal the Muslim man or Preach the Gospel to him. Which one did you do offer first.

By the claim you are the vessel you sound like claiming that God chose you to “channel” through and that is just crazy and not Biblical. You sound like Benny Hinn.

Yes Harry you probably love teachings of people like John G Lake and Kenneth Copeland. Well this sums in up pretty much for me.

This excerpt from article below:

A dominionist viewpoint is found through Lakes writings. When we understand the Latter Rain heresy that began in the early 1900’s we see exactly what Lake means by these statements.

The Bible teaches that we are sons of God when we believe (Jn.1:12) the teaching of the Latter Rain makes “manifest sons” an experience. This bears repeating- “The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god. It makes one not subject to the forces of the world, or the flesh, or the devil. These are under the Christians feet.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. 13)

Lake explains “Five years ago when my heart was broken, in the agony of my heart I disappeared into the woods of Oregon for 21 days with God, and he Showed me a church in Spokane that would be as pure as Jesus Christ. When it will come, I don’t know, but it will never come from a lot of slop and evangelistic mess, but when we live our lives on God’s alter” (The Spokesman Review, April 22, 1929).

And you know the funny thing is Angus Buchan also goes to the woods of his farm he did it before MMC ………Now that makes me think Hmmmmmmmmmm

Lake claimed that sin was the cause of sickness and adopted Dowies view that anyone who went to a doctor was as a heathen. Lake had this belief as the basis for his divine health “It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.13).

The teaching for the early church in scripture was “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14). People did get sick and that is why, besides these instructions from James, one of the gifts of the spirit was to heal sickness. In conclusion Lakes divine health (which Copeland also believes he is living in) is not biblical and completely untrue, even in Lakes own life.

Please read on Harry.
______________________________________________________________

Reviving the Revival of John Lake

Discrepancies are not few but abundant when it comes to what Lake did, when he did it and the amount of people he healed. While in Spokane one-hundred thousand healings were reported during a period of five years.

We also read “Dr. Lake indicated that at least one hundred thousand people were ministered to each year either by car, telephone, telegraph, letter, or cable” (The Healer: Dr. John Graham Lake).

That is 100,000 people a year he saw individually. That is incredible- this is approx. 333 a day (with 1 day a week off). This would be 15 people each hour for twenty hours each day. And the number would be far greater if he had a regular day of 10 hours; if you want to believe this you can- it certainly stretches ones credulity.

Yet we are told in his biography a different number “Open each weekday from 10 to 4. Personal interviews and ministry”

“In a general letter published Saturday, February 8, 1919, in the Spokesman Review, Dr. Lake indicated that they ministered to an average of two hundred people per day in the Healing rooms (John G. Lake Biography

this makes it only 6 hours a day. with 200 per day is nearly one person every two minutes.

When Lake was in South Africa, the crowds were reportedly so great that he was unable to pray for everyone that needed prayer. According to one report- Roberts Liardon who tells the stories of the healers” “Can you see this rock that I’m standing next to? Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to lay my hands on this particular rock. I’m going to ask God to anoint this place and any of you that are sick just come up here and touch this rock…and…the power that I leave in it will go into you and make you whole.” )

When Lake left Spokane to go to Portland, Oregon in May of 1920, the Healing Rooms there ceased. Lake returned to Spokane in 1931, and found that the work he had started no longer existed. One can only wonder why after only 5 years he closed down the rooms to move to another city if it was so successful.

Kenneth Copeland on John G Lake:
”Throughout this book, but especially chapters 29 Science of Healing and 30 Results of Believing Prayer are sprinkled testimonies presented to the Spokane Better Business Bureau.
Lake shares in chapter 31 The Power of Divine Healing that his co-worker in S Africa prayed for days under a thorn tree for the end to a fever epidemic that had killed a quarter of the population in 1 month in an area of 350 miles. That man prayed until he at last needed prayer support. They witnessed a flock of demons, which his prayer partner cursed back to where they had come from. Immediately the epidemic stopped.
In chapter 31 Lake also shares a testimony of a creative miracle of a tubercular limb that was so decayed that the physician could put his finger through the joint. The healing was so unusual that John Alexander Dowie of Chicago interviewed the woman. Lake also shares that God healed him (self) from both crippling rheumatism and blindness. )

“He proved to local physicians that the germs would not live on his body due to the Holy Spirit alive in Him. He actually verified this under a microscope showing that the germs died upon contact with his body. Those who witnessed the experiment stood in amazement as Lake gave glory to God explaining that: “It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. I believe that just as long as I keep my soul in contact with the living God so that His Spirit is flowing into my soul and body, that no germ will ever attach itself to me, for the Spirit of God will kill it.”

Does this mean that those who get sick do not have the Holy Spirit in their body to keep them healthy? Why do we find saints getting sick in the bible? Lakes teaching was divine health not divine healing.

On numerous Healing Rooms websites we find them saying “because of his resurrection revelation, had a deadly plague germ die in his hand”

This was no germ “To demonstrate, he had them take live bubonic plague germs still foaming from the lungs of a newly dead person and put them in his hands and then examine the germs under a microscope. They were dead.”

Paul was given a thorn in the flesh because of his revelations, Lake had a revelation and no germs live in him in Africa, but in the US there was a different story. Greg DesVoignes research cites the “Spokesman Review,” April 24, 1929 “Frequently he had to pause to cough or sneeze, as he was suffering from a cold. Once he had to go out into the hall to stop a spasm of coughing.”

Lake claimed that sin was the cause of sickness and adopted Dowies view that anyone who went to a doctor was as a heathen. Lake had this belief as the basis for his divine health “It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.13).

One cannot find this teaching among the apostles, Epaphroditus who ministered to Paul had become sick (Phil.2:25) Paul said: “Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick” (2 Tim. 4:20).

The teaching for the early church in scripture was “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord” (James 5:14). People did get sick and that is why, besides these instructions from James, one of the gifts of the spirit was to heal sickness. In conclusion Lakes divine health (which Copeland also believes he is living in) is not biblical and completely untrue, even in Lakes own life.

Lake had dubbed this belief “This new science is known as pneumatology: the science of spirit…” but it is more like a “mind science,” and has nothing to do with the a study of the Holy Spirit.

Lake also had outrageous claims on his ability to diagnose sickness: “My nature became so sensitized that I could lay my hands on any man or woman and tell what organ was diseased and to what extent” “Lake tested this new wonder by going to hospitals and touching patients to determine what their ailments were. And even to make it more challenging, most of them were cases that even the physicians could not diagnose” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. xxi).

This is something we do not see any apostle do and is in that category of greater works. But there are stories of healing failures of Lake carried by the local papers that cannot be ignored.

Pentecostal Dominionism

Lake: “I can see as my spirit discerns the future and reaches out to touch the heart of mankind and the desire of God, that there is coming from heaven a new manifestation of the Holy Spirit in power, and that new manifestation will be in sweetness, in love, in tenderness, and in the power of the Spirit, beyond anything your heart or mind ever saw. The very lightning of God will flash through men’s souls. The sons of God will meet the sons of darkness and prevail.

Clearly this is church dominionism of which the Bible has nothing to say about. Lake had believed in another Pentecost that would be utterly transforming and his descriptions have been used and abused by many.

Chicago Tribune, June 14, 1895, p. 7- “Beloved, God is calling men and women to a holier consecration, to a higher place in God, and I am one of God’s candidates for that holy place in God. I want to get to the throne of God… And that is the experience that is going to make the sons of God in the world. That is the reason they will take the world for Jesus Christ, and the Kingdom will be established, and they will put the crown on the Son of God, and declare him, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords…” (underline mine)

A dominionist viewpoint is found through Lakes writings. When we understand the Latter Rain heresy that began in the early 1900’s we see exactly what Lake means by these statements.

The Bible teaches that we are sons of God when we believe (Jn.1:12) the teaching of the Latter Rain makes “manifest sons” an experience. This bears repeating- “The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god. It makes one not subject to the forces of the world, or the flesh, or the devil. These are under the Christians feet.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. 13)

Lake explains “Five years ago when my heart was broken, in the agony of my heart I disappeared into the woods of Oregon for 21 days with God, and he Showed me a church in Spokane that would be as pure as Jesus Christ. When it will come, I don’t know, but it will never come from a lot of slop and evangelistic mess, but when we live our lives on God’s alter” (The Spokesman Review, April 22, 1929).

It is good to desire holiness to do good works but can a church ever be perfect as Jesus without the final transformation of the resurrection? To say that it will be in Spokane seems to come from his own desire of the heart of the situation he was dealing with. Some of this is reminiscent of Joseph Smith who also found himself in the woods visited by Jesus and an angel and found the church corrupt, needing restoration.

I did find a contradiction of Lakes desire and what he himself did. He had “ Public services on Sunday at The Masonic Temple at 11 a.m. and 3 p.m. (John G. Lake Biography http://www.enterhisrest.org/charismata/lake_biography.pdf

This is a problem, considering what the Masons are about, why would they let him use their facility, better yet, why would you want to hold you church meetings there?

Electric power

“Such was the power of his anointing that he wrote about it as being like the lightning of Jesus: “You talk about the voltage from heaven and the power of God! Why there is lightning in the soul of Jesus! The lightnings of Jesus heal men by their flash! Sin dissolves and disease flees when the power of God approaches!” Lake would also compare the anointing of God’s Spirit to the power of electricity. Just as men had learned the laws of electricity, Lake had discovered the laws of the Spirit. And, as God’s “lightning rod,” he would rise within God’s calling to electrify the powers of darkness and solidify the body of Chris.” (God’s Generals

Once again we have an interesting correlation to the manifestations of the false revivals in our midst today. Rodney Browne, Toronto, Pensacola all describe God’s power and anointing like electricity.

We are also told that Lake “had been influenced by the ministry of Sister Marie Woodworth-Etter, and himself influenced countless ministers. Positive Words Newsletter- online#114 — 3rd April 2006)

Maria Woodsworth-Etter (1844-1924) was a preacher in the holiness movement in the 1880’s. She gained a reputation by falsely prophesying that San Francisco would be destroyed by an earthquake in 1890. She promoted in her meetings a religious experience she called the “power.” She would often go into a trance during the services, standing still (frozen) with her hands raised in the air for more than an hour. People were slain in the spirit and other strange phenomenon occurred. Certainly not a good influence any more than Dowie.

Lake also exhibited nearly identical descriptions of what we have seen in today’s revival meetings of Rodney Browne and Toronto early on in his ministry “In 1908 I preached in Pretoria South Africa, when one night God came over my life in such power, in such streams of liquid glory and power, that it flowed consciously off my hands like streams of electricity. I would point my finger at a man and that stream would strike him. When a man interrupted the meeting. I would point my finger at him and say, “Sit down!”. He fell as if struck, and lay there for three hours…” (ed. Note: Just like the stories of Rodney Browne).

“I ministered to sixty-five sick who were present, and the streams that were pouring through my hands were so powerful the people would fall as they were hit… And the Spirit said, “You do not need to put your hands on them. Keep your hands a distance away’. And when I held my hands a foot from their heads they would crumple and fall in a heap on the floor” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.488)

Copeland writes-“At other times the anointing on him became so strong that people would fall under its power simply by coming within six feet of him.” (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. xxi)

While spirits are often passed on by the laying on of hands and various other means, this is not how the Holy Spirit was or is passed on to believers. There is no Biblical basis for a transmission of a mantle or transferring an anointing from one person to another. There is no evidence that a transfer took place when apostles laid hands on people (1 Timothy 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6). The Holy Spirit was not coming from them to others. The laying on of hands was a public recognition by them, a confirmation of what the Holy Spirit has either already done or wants to do (Acts 6:6; 8:17; 13:3; Hebrews 6:2). Acts 19 tells us that when Paul laid hands on some believers from Ephesus the Spirit came (Gr. Epi), upon them, from above, not (Gr. dia), through him. The Spirit did not come by or through Paul’s hands, but it came upon the disciples from above, just as He did on Pentecost. Jesus sends the holy Spirit- not man.

“John G. Lake moved in a profound anointing of the Spirit of God. Healing, deliverance and miracles were a steady occurrence in his ministry. Anyone reading of the great things that God did through Lake would desire to walk in such an anointing. We, individually and as a movement, desire to appropriate and walk in this type of mantle. There is a truth to the fact that anointings can be “handed on” through the laying on of hands. (See Num. 34:9) This “handing on” of anointings, of course, must be orchestrated by the Spirit of God. http://www.wordatwork.org

At least if you’re going to try and prove this unbiblical teaching you should get the Scripture citation right. Actually, there is no biblical basis for this. It is a tradition of Pentecostalism, especially found in the Latter Rain. There is only one anointing. The only one who is recorded asking for the anointing was Simon the sorcerer (Acts 13:6a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,) it was not a good thing.

There are only a few mentions of hands being laid and the Spirit in the Old Testament, if one does not read it carefully they can come to the wrong conclusion. For example Deut. 34:9: “Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him.” This would seem as if he received the spirit by Moses laying hands on him. However if we read the other account we find he already had God’s Spirit in him and that is why Moses laid his hand on him, to confirm his leadership position. Numbers 27:18: “And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.” Vv.19-20 tells us it was, to” inaugurate him in their sight” and give him some of his authority.

Another account is in Numbers 11:17: “Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.” It would seem that the same spirit that was put on Moses would be distributed to others, but not from him.

Num 11:25 “Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again” this was a one time event to endorse their leadership role to be a help to Moses.

Joe McIntyre (on behalf of the board of IFM) International fellowship of ministries – advancing the vision of John Lake tells us “Wilford Reidt, John G. Lake’s son-in-law, (who headed this organization for many years) laid hands on many of our members for a transfer of anointing”. (underline mine) He then assures us that no one can make exclusive claims to have Lake’s anointing or to be the designated heir of his mantle.

Among those stories when they came to the Hawaiian Islands -Pastors Steve and Fay Johnson: Pastor Steve left before we arrived. God touched Sister Fay with a double portion enough to share with Brother Steve.”

That’s an interesting concept; that the Holy Spirit is in a limited supply .I would think many would have a problem with descriptions that are never hinted in the Scripture of the New Testament.

John writes “the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you” (1 John 2:27). He continually indwells the believer; He is with us and we received Him from Jesus. So there is no need for us to transfer Him to another believer (even if we could). You cannot impart the Holy Spirit who is God. It was Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and He is the one who anoints us today- we are not little Jesus’ able to do this or everything He can.

Jackie Alnor mentions in an article that cites Liardons video on the Pentecostal preachers “And John G. Lake’s spirit would leave his body and minister to people in the spirit realm.” Not surprising that Kenneth Copeland has a similar story – he says “My spirit was coming out of my body” as he carried on a conversation with his god – god responded “ you were just about to come out of your body and I was going to allow you to minister that congregation with out your BODY,” but he blew the opportunity.

So where is this teaching in the Bible? Its not, but it is found in Occult circles, its called astral travel. While Lake was in Africa, we are told his soul traveled to an asylum in Wales where a violent insane woman was confined.

“Suddenly, I seemed out of the body…it seemed as if I were passing through the atmosphere observing everything but moving with great lightning-like rapidity,” Lake wrote.

“I was inside the institution without waiting for the doors to open and present at the side of a cot on which lay a woman.”

“Lake laid his hands upon her head and commanded in the name of Jesus that the demon spirit possessing her be cast out and that she be healed by the power of God.”

“In a moment or two, I observed a change coming over her countenance,” Lake narrated. “It softened and a look of intelligence appeared. Then her eyes opened, and she smiled up in my face. I knew she was healed.” Doctors who later confirmed her recovery had no explanation to offer.” (Adventures in God by John G. Lake)

It is these kind of mystical/Occult experiences that have me question the validity of any of his stories and miracles.

p.3 The Healing Rooms today- Their origin and practices of today

http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac41.htm

Harry

I think you miss the whole argument.
Please show me a scripture that says that healing, tongues or gifts of the Holy Spirit has passed away.
1Cor 13:12 then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
Please don’t tell this scripture says so. This talks about one day when we are in His presence.
You might tell me we have the Bible now.
Well we think everybody in the world have a Bible or our privileges.
I am allowed to say then that nations who have not been reached or who do not have the Bible in their own language or maybe have nothing written in their language would be allowed to move in the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit?

We do not want to pray for the sick because of the way people abuse it. We are scared to use the word faith because of abuse. We are scared to talk about the gifts of the spirit because of abuse.
We must find a balance. Just because a few individuals who kill themselves, and others, because of the way they drive does not stop us who stick to the rules from driving. The same counts for believers, just because some people go to the extreme it will not stop me from believing and living the whole council of God.
Faith:
I have just read the Gospels again and noticed how many time Jesus said “your faith”. So obviously whatever they had received had something to do with “their faith”. Jesus also said what you believe you can have. The key is to find the balance and get rid of the extreme. Yes my faith works and will work as long as it is in accordance with the will of the One who gave it to me in the first place. Anything outside of this, whether I receive it (by my own power not by God’s) or not, have anything to do with the will of God and can lead to false teaching.
Tongues (Pentecostal or Charismatics) and healing.
Jesus said in Mark, those who believe will speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and they will recover. We cannot ignore this because of people’s abuses. What about 1 Cor 12,13, 14, we cannot just act like it does not exist. We must preach the whole council of God and not just our own pet doctrines.
I still lay hands on people and the words Jesus spoke so long ago still have power to heal.
I am baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and I pray for people to be baptized and the same happens to them.
If this piece in the Gospel of Mark is not for today then maybe the rest of the Bible is also not for today.
The key is to find the truth in the Word and to stick to it. Do not make the Word say something it does not say, this will always get you into trouble!

Elmarie A

Harry

You Say:'”Do not make the Word say something it does not say, this will always get you into trouble!”

You are just doing that yourself Harry getting yourselve in trouble.

No I’m not missing any argument because there is not an argument.

Harry you believes differ vastly from the views on this blog. Please stop forcing your views here on this blog. Your points you make are weak and mostly non biblical.

You know that Corr 12,13 and 14 is used totally out for context by charismatic and people who believe in Miracles signs and wonders and that is research you should do for your self. You have been given allot of Biblical information on this blog and you simply choose to ignore it.

You have not read any of my comments that gives Biblical proof. You see things in a twisted and blinded way. My prayer for you is that you find the real Jesus and Holy Spirit in you life.

You are deceived by the wrong spirits full stop. It is very difficult to show a deceived person the straight and narrow road. In fact the Word says that God has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds

John 12:39-41 39 Therefore they could not believe [they were unable to believe]. For Isaiah has also said, 40He has blinded their eyes and hardened and benumbed their [callous, degenerated] hearts [He has made their minds dull], to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their hearts and minds and repenting and turning to Me to heal them. 41Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him

Please Harry don’t come back here with more twisted views.

As the word tells us we are to turn away from irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. And after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], Well aware that such a person has utterly changed (is perverted and corrupted); he goes on sinning [though he] is convicted of guilt and self-condemned.

1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, guard and keep the deposit entrusted [to you]! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination.

Titus 3:9-11 (Amplified Bible)
9But avoid stupid and foolish controversies and genealogies and dissensions and wrangling about the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. 10[As for] a man who is factious [a heretical sectarian and cause of divisions], after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], 11Well aware that such a person has utterly changed (is perverted and corrupted); he goes on sinning [though he] is convicted of guilt and self-condemned.

1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we earnestly beseech you, brethren, admonish (warn and seriously advise) those who are out of line [the loafers, the disorderly, and the unruly]; encourage the timid and fainthearted, help and give your support to the weak souls, [and] be very patient with everybody [always keeping your temper].

Just more Biblical proof your views are in correct Harry.

Question: “Are the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today?”

Answer: First, it is important to recognize that this is not a question of whether God still performs miracles today. It would be foolish and unbiblical to claim God does not heal people, speak to people, and perform miraculous signs and wonders today. The question is whether the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, described primarily in 1 Corinthians 12–14, are still active in the church today. This is also not a question of can the Holy Spirit give someone a miraculous gift. The question is whether the Holy Spirit still dispenses the miraculous gifts today. Above all else, we entirely recognize that the Holy Spirit is free to dispense gifts according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

In the book of Acts and the Epistles, the vast majority of miracles are performed by the apostles and their close associates. Paul gives us the reason why: “The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance” (2 Corinthians 12:12). If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle. Acts 2:22 tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.” Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed. Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.

Chapters 12–14 of 1 Corinthians deal primarily with the subject of the gifts of the Spirit. It seems from that text “ordinary” Christians were sometimes given miraculous gifts (12:8-10, 28-30). We are not told how commonplace this was. From what we learned above, that the apostles were “marked” by signs and wonders, it would seem that miraculous gifts being given to “ordinary” Christians was the exception, not the rule. Beside the apostles and their close associates, the New Testament nowhere specifically describes individuals exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

It is also important to realize that the early church did not have the completed Bible, as we do today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc. were necessary in order for the early Christians to know what God would have them do. The gift of prophecy enabled believers to communicate new truth and revelation from God. Now that God’s revelation is complete in the Bible, the “revelatory” gifts are no longer needed, at least not in the same capacity as they were in the New Testament.

God miraculously heals people every day. God still speaks to us today, whether in an audible voice, in our minds, or through impressions and feelings. God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders and sometimes performs those miracles through a Christian. However, these things are not necessarily the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The primary purpose of the miraculous gifts was to prove that the gospel was true and that the apostles were truly God’s messengers. The Bible does not say outright that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but it does lay the foundation for why they might no longer occur to the same extent as they did as recorded in the New Testament.

http://www.gotquestions.org/miraculous-gifts.html

Elmarie A

Harry
You said : “Please show me a scripture that says that healing, tongues or gifts of the Holy Spirit has passed away.
1Cor 13:12 then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.”

Here is something for you to ponder on if you would even bother to read it. Now this also shows how incorrect your views are concerning speaking in tongues.

______________________________________________________________
Question: “What is the gift of speaking in tongues?”

Answer: The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages: “We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated tongues literally means “languages.” Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14, Paul discusses miraculous gifts, saying, “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?” (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.

A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. “For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul’s conclusion regarding tongues that were not interpreted is powerful: “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Corinthians 14:19).

Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge “ceasing” and that of tongues “being ceased” as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the “perfect.” While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God’s oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a “sign to unbelievers.” According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.

At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God’s Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God’s plan for the church today.
______________________________________________________________

Question: “Is cessationism Biblical?”

Answer: Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8); Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24); the apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are 6 proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest Epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned (although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy, the Greek word translated prophecy mean “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future).

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2.As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence that the sign gifts have ceased. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

http://www.gotquestions.org/cessationism.html

Alan

Elmarie,

One of the things that Jesus said we should do to identify whether or not someone is a true follower of Him, is to observe their FRUIT, by which (especially in light of 1 Cor. 13), He meant the fruits of the Spirit. A lot of folks nowadays talk about miracles, etc, being a sign to unbelievers, but the Bible makes it quite clear that we are to earnestly seek the fruit of the Spirit in our lives above all else. This is a natural outworking of our becoming more like Jesus Christ as we grow in Him by the power of the Spirit.
I find it strange that anyone would want to be a prophet, like Elijah, Isaiah, etc. The accuracy required by the scripture is 100% and as far as I know, the injunction on stoning a false prophet hasn’t been revoked… NAH, just kidding, but God’s attitude to false prophets and preachers and teachers is pretty fearsome. I certainly wouldn’t want to have to explain any ‘mistakes’ to Him.
There are some who go about talking of a ‘school of the prophets’, which I find frankly silly, because a prophet is to speak the words the Holy Spirit gives him. How exactly do you learn to do something that the Holy Spirit gives you the ability to do? It’s not like He needs any practice! If a prophet is just letting the Holy Spirit speak through him, then there really is no ‘schooling’ necessary, because it’s like God’s strength being made perfect in the speaker’s weakness, isn’t it?

Blessings,
Alan.

Harry

Hi Elmarie
The above is what you get when you try to explain something you have not experienced yourself.
The Bible talks about diverse kinds of tongues, this means different types of tongues.
Please try and read some stuff from people who have experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and not people who are criticising stuff they have no clue about.
Please pray and ask Jesus to baptize you in the Holy Spirit to the full extend according to what is written in His word not according to your own interpretation….
You are missing out on a lot in your walk with God……
Please give me one example of something I have said that I cannot backup with scripture?
And as far as love in your life goes….. well stop insulting me because I do not fit into your mould…..

Elmarie A

Alan

Yes I agree with you. Your words are true. Yeah and the Schools for prophets are found as a very common thing in the charismatic churches and South Africa is over run with them. A very sad situation indeed. The fact that new generation is being drawn in to this is just as sad.

I often think about how the false prophets was stoned in the Old Testament :-)

God’s attitude to false prophets and preachers and teachers is pretty fearsome

Indeed indeed true words Alan

We can just carry on praying for these people, we may not hate them, we must love as we are commanded. but I hate the sins they are commiting.

Harry

Now where shall I start?

Question 1:
Please quote scripture to back up your claim that tongues is a heavenly language?

Mark 16:11
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with NEW tongues
This Jesus said. Please note the word IN MY NAME. I do it in His name not my own power.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
As the Spirit gave them utterance. Surely this shows it is from above.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied
Here we see more people besides the 12 or 120 speaking in tongues?
Nowhere do I read Paul saying “ok guys this is it after I am dead and gone no more speaking in tongues or practising the gifts of the Holy Spirit”

1 Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues
Please note there are varieties of tongues.

1 Cor 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

1 Cor 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
Please note here he speaks of tongues being used in public worship. Not personal tongues used in private prayer.
For us who are baptised in the Holy Spirit and use the gifts of the Spirit that was given to the church on the day of Pentecost it works like this. If you get a tongue from the Lord while in a public service it is different from the one you have for use during private prayed. (Most of us actually pray in the Spirit all the time.)

1 Cor 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (Is this not what you are doing? You are telling other people to disobey a command in the Bible?)

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[a] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (The groanings here happens when you pray in tongues in deep intersession.)

It says the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. The weakness is that I do not know what to pray. I say lord I Pray for Deborah, I do not know you or what to pray for, but the Spirit knows. I pray in tongues and the spirit who gives me the tongue prays God’s perfect will for your life at that moment through me. When you speak in tongues you actually submit your tongue to the Holy Spirit. This is same as submitting your will to Jesus.

Question 2
Also I want you to tell us what you are saying when you speak in tongues?
I won’t know what I pray for unless it is in public and there is an interpretation. If there is no interpretation it was a normal tongue.
Remember I said varieties of tongues.

I have heard people saying that God reveals to them sometimes what they are praying for but I have never had this happen to me. As far as I know according to the Word only public tongues will be interpreted.
I will say Lord I am praying for so and so and then switch over to tongues, most times I just pray in tongues without something specific as I know the Holy Spirit is using me to pray his will for someone or something in the world.
When I pray in tongues it is done by faith. I do not know what I am praying for when I pray in my own tongue given to me by the Holy Spirit. The same as I believe in what Jesus has done for me by faith.

Question 3
I would like you to go and find the verse and quote it here where it states that you have to have an interpreter?

1 Cor 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the INTERPRETATION of tongues.
I am sure this is good enough?

1 Cor 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
You see public tongues are for the edification of the church, private tongues is for the edification of the individual.

Jude v 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

I hope this answers your questions.

Harry

Am I going to get a reply?
Anybody?

[Edit: Please see

While waiting, you can go over all the answers you have been given and all the questions that you have ignored.]

Burning Lamp

Am I missing something here – the issue about Angus Buchan is much more than speaking in tongues. This is a pardon the expression – a bunny trail. :-)

Sincere believers can disagree on this and use scripture to support their position. Some speak in tongues and some do not. It is a private matter. Keep it to yourself and don’t go around boasting about it and making an issue of it Harry. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of salvation. The teaching that evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongue is in error. Harry, take a look at the core issues here and hopefully you will see the error of Angus’s ways.

louise

Hi Harry,

May I interject by saying all what you have said I agree with and I seem to do what you do. Strange though as it may seem I have never had a release when hearing it in public and have often felt as if its spoken out of turn. Perhaps its because I tend to think that people lack LOVE and yet its the fleshy gifts they strive for. It gives me cold shivers which run down my spine when I hear it. Anything to do with the flesh and man I run away from. When I do speak tongues its always between GOD and me, and yet I know lovely lovely people tending for the faith who do not have that Gift, yet want it. I see so much of it in the faith movement who I believe are part of the great apostasy so my question is which is the true tongues and which is the false. Remember satan has a counterfiet and in all my times of attending church I have heard more false than real tongues spoken. For me my answer is let GOD deal with us on a one to one level when it comes to the gifts and lets no fight amongst each other and spit and quarrel, instead let our love shine and help each other understand what truth is.
Thank you.

louise

Angus has error!!!!!!!!!!!! Where…..just kidding. Sadly he is another who will have to stand before GOD and say but I did it in your name. Sometimes in our walk with GOD he will show us time and time again on how wrong we are but we will not give up our ways as our life style does not permit it to do so. Angus has made a small fortune and profited much out of the Gospel. Just as Balaam had done and yet it took a donkey to tell him to stop. GOD may still use a donkey. Smiles. lets hope that all who have gone astray will come back to the truth though I doubt it as the scriptures tell us narrow is the way, and there be few that find it. I pray that I will never lose the truth as it can happen to the anyone.

louise

May I ask was there an offering basket at these might men conferences. Thank u

Burning Lamp

Good words Louise. Yes, there are counterfeits and we need to be discerning and I think you put the tongues issue in perspective. Those who go spouting off in public at the drop of a hat are most likely displaying a counterfeit and operating in the flesh. The Holy Spirit does not call attention to Himself and does not glorify man. I know one church that does believe speaking in tongues is for today but does not allow it in corporate worship where it cannot be tested. It is not viewed as a gift that makes one superior to another. That is not of God. I know mature believers who speak in tongues and those who do not. It is not a barometer of spiritual maturity. Those who interpret that it is not for today should not blanketly condemn those who do and say it is of the devil. Some do that and that is not right either. Charity should prevail in these areas.

If Sir Angus speaks publicly in tongues which I don’t know one way or the other as I have never been to one of his meetings,it would be an indication of a false spirit. That goes for the gibberish that comes out of the TV preachers who do this for effect or out of their flesh. There is no interpretation or order as the Bible directs.

Elmarie A

Burning Lamp

This is a pardon the expression – a bunny trail. :-)

Yip you may say it a bunny trail yip. :-)

louise

May I ask was there an offering basket at these might men conferences. Thank u

There always is and it is always part of these gatherings.

Patrick Ölund

1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

Elmarie A

Patrick Ölund

1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

Quote the verses in context please.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (Amplified Bible)

8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([a]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).

10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.

12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [b]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [c]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [d]fully and clearly known and understood [[e]by God].

13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith–conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope–joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love–true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The meaning of this in context is :

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

13:8-13 Charity is much to be preferred to the gifts on which the Corinthians prided themselves. From its longer continuance. It is a grace, lasting as eternity. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused notions of things, have children when compared with grown men! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts of this world, when we come to heaven. All things are dark and confused now, compared with what they will be hereafter. They can only be seen as by the reflection in a mirror, or in the description of a riddle; but hereafter our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. It is the light of heaven only, that will remove all clouds and darkness that hide the face of God from us. To sum up the excellences of charity, it is preferred not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope. Faith fixes on the Divine revelation, and assents thereto, relying on the Divine Redeemer. Hope fastens on future happiness, and waits for that; but in heaven, faith will be swallowed up in actual sight, and hope in enjoyment. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But there, love will be made perfect. There we shall perfectly love God. And there we shall perfectly love one another. Blessed state! how much surpassing the best below! God is love, 1Jo 4:8,16. Where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height; there only will it be perfected.

Grant C

1Cor 13:10-13 this is about heaven. In heaven we don’t need tongues.

We don’t need tongues in this life either. What could possibly be the need for tongues today? God created all our languages and it seems far more worthy to praise Him in our own tongue, understanding ourselves the extent and content of our praise.

We certainly will not convince unbelievers of the Truth simply because we speak in tongues either, we are not authors of Faith, and for evangelizing we have the complete Word of God in the Bible, the translations, translators and most importantly, the Holy Spirit.

Certainly, all things are possible for God and yes, if He wanted to give someone the gift of tongues for purposes which we do not understand, it is not our place to question it.

However, Scriptural support is lacking for the extreme prevalence of claimants to the gift of tongues. This furthermore adds improbability to the cause and begs the question as to whether such a divisive practice would be in accordance with the perfection of the rest God’s plan.

There seems to be general consensus among Biblical Christians that the Word of Faith movement is, by and large, false Christianity. Does it not therefore follow that speaking in tongues, which they so strongly advocate as evidential to faith, is the only gift which they feel cannot be categorically disproved.

paula

I stand in awe of what I read on peoples comments regarding prophets, prophecies and the like. I would like to know who you are and what god has called you to bring down His chosen. What gospel are you preaching? Because I do not recognize it. It sounds to me that you are delusional, and have not really known who God truly is. You see, all I can hear you say about these people, is judgmental. I’m sure God did not give you the gift of judging others, the word does say ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’. If you really know and understand the word of God, then you would know that what these ones are saying is from God. I pity you, why not spend some time in God’s presence and see what He has to say to you, if you can remember how to get in touch with Him. Get a life!

Elmarie A

paula

I stand in awe of what I read on peoples comments regarding prophets, prophecies and the like. I would like to know who you are and what god has called you to bring down His chosen. What gospel are you preaching? Because I do not recognize it. It sounds to me that you are delusional, and have not really known who God truly is. You see, all I can hear you say about these people, is judgmental. I’m sure God did not give you the gift of judging others, the word does say ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’. If you really know and understand the word of God, then you would know that what these ones are saying is from God. I pity you, why not spend some time in God’s presence and see what He has to say to you, if you can remember how to get in touch with Him. Get a life!

People like you will stand in awe because you may be blind. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (Amplified Bible) 10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, 12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

You know this is why the false churches today are slaughtering the sheep they simply do not teach the true Gospel.The way you used Matthew 7:1 are not used in context as you where taught only this piece ‘do not judge ,lest you be judged’ you have no idea what the verse mean or says in context and do not even know that the Bible should be used in context.

It is indeed sad to see that People like yourself are lead around by the nose and told lies by the false churches. It is shamefull to see this happening more and more the world is deceived in preparation for the anti-chirist. May God have mercy on our souls.

Please quote Scripture in context this is what the verse really says and the real meaning:

Matthew 7:1-6 (Amplified Bible)

Matthew 7
1DO NOT judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.

2For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.

3Why do you [a]stare from without at the [b]very small particle that is in your brother’s eye but do not become aware of and consider the beam [c]of timber that is in your own eye?

4Or how can you say to your brother, Let me get the tiny particle out of your eye, when there is the beam [d]of timber in your own eye?

5You hypocrite, first get the beam of timber out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the tiny particle out of your brother’s eye.

6Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary

7:1-6 We must judge ourselves, and judge of our own acts, but not make our word a law to everybody. We must not judge rashly, nor pass judgment upon our brother without any ground. We must not make the worst of people. Here is a just reproof to those who quarrel with their brethren for small faults, while they allow themselves in greater ones. Some sins are as motes, while others are as beams; some as a gnat, others as a camel. Not that there is any sin little; if it be a mote, or splinter, it is in the eye; if a gnat, it is in the throat; both are painful and dangerous, and we cannot be easy or well till they are got out. That which charity teaches us to call but a splinter in our brother’s eye, true repentance and godly sorrow will teach us to call a beam in our own. It is as strange that a man can be in a sinful, miserable condition, and not be aware of it, as that a man should have a beam in his eye, and not consider it; but the god of this world blinds their minds. Here is a good rule for reprovers; first reform thyself.

Paula take care and do not be deceived by the wolves prowling (false prophets) around seeking to devour the sheep as they are dressed in sheeps clothing and possibly even deceiving the elect, God chosen ones.

Matthew 7:14-16 (Amplified Bible)

14But the gate is narrow (contracted [a]by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.(A)

15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.(B)

16You will [b]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

Matthew 24:23-25 (Amplified Bible)

23 If anyone says to you then, Behold, here is the Christ (the Messiah)! or, There He is!–do not believe it.

24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).

25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

Paula Please go study your Bible and the above Scriptures in context before you come back and make any further comment.

Michael

The WOF and aligned movements are a demonic deception and are so evil that it blinds one spiritually…a real spiritual booby-trap. I know I was deceived by this movement…some time back. A distortion of the scriptures…very dangerous and nearly destroyed my faith but thanks to the gracious mercy of my Heavenly Father I was guided back on track.They use the words “Fruit of the spirit” but this is seen by them as success materially, they are fond of labeling those Christians that follow a holy and righteous way of living as legalists and hypocritical…they go lightly on sin…they talk of love but really do not show concern and are shallow and glib.They find scripture (out out of context) to boost self and achievement.Poverty and sickness to them is seen as lack of faith and a state of sin…they hate those that expose them and they are people-pleasers and align themselves to a worldly spirit. They confuse conviction with condemnation and are a lover of works rather than mercy and grace and see themselves as little gods that use the name the name of Jesus (in a blasphemous fashion)…ie “name it and claim it”. They are carnal and rely on a mystic approach to find spirituality.They will defend a Benny Hinn ,Joyce Meyer ,Angus Buchan and co , zealously rather than defend the integrity of the Bible and the true measage of the gospels.They see these preachers as God’s annointed and warn those that expose them “as not to speak againgst God’s annointed”. They idolise men and not God. When one points out error and sin in an individual’s life they will block you with another scripture out of context…their favourite “do not judge”…they manipulate scripture and their followers with doctrines to further their causes.
I know this as I was once in a church that did exactly this. I was born-again and converted in a non -charismatic church before I sadly took this route but was guided out by the Holy Spirit. Praise God for Christians like Debs and Elmarie and Grant that have the courage and integrity to stand up against these sinister goings-on in the church to-day.
Harry talks of Angus’s fruit and honesty and Debs lack of it but the truth is the very opposite….Debs builds on the Rock whereas Angus’s on the sand and is flawed as is his true testimony…Angus has a lot of repenting to do…told a lie in his book “Faith like Potatoes”…apart from other issues and he knows this. Angus is a very likeable man and will appeal to man and could be used by God if he repented and started to preach the real message of salvation…to save souls from hell.

Paul

I think that if people study Scripture and not their “Bibles” and stop listening to Pulpit Parrots and study the true Scriptures and if they are “Born Again” they will have truth revealed to them by the Holy Ghost.

If you do not know the Messiah, you cannot understand the Scriptures, He said that himself. there is no point in arguing with the unsaved, they cannot understand; the best that can be done is to give them the Gospel.

A lot of the comments on this website are obviously from people who are seeking but are not yet convicted but also from people who are outright antichrist and need prayer.

Marius

This is sickening. We are all fighting for the same cause, now we go and criticize one another. As soon as someone’s church, or his gatherings becomes too big then people will start criticizing. Look at the early church, they grew in leaps and bounds and thousands got saved, where they criticized? Off course yes. Why is it that so many go to a meeting of Angus and gets saved there. Because God uses people as vessels to Build His Kingdom, isn’t that what we are all here to do? Build God’s Kingdom?

If you search long enough you’ll eventually find something that concerns you. If you look at my life, sure you’ll find mistakes, a lot of them. How about yours? Angus has the fruit on the tree. Most of these comments does not at all represent what we as Christians stand for, instead of uniting, we are arguing. Is that what God wants for His people? If I wasn’t a New Born Christian and I came onto this site I would be afraid of becoming one, I would be confused.

I know most us has good intentions with these comments, so let’s fight the cause and not one another.

Let Him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Blessings
Marius

Michael

Marius…Oh boy!!! If only you knew…there are none so blind as those WILL NOT SEE…or some nominal christian attitudes today…just winking at sin…ooooh you must not judge…ok just accommodate and tolerate a little here and there afterall we are not perfect.
Sounds very similar to the word approach of Satan (serpent)in the garden of Eden.
You do NOT know the real truth about Angus Buchan.
DO NOT IDOLISE ANY MAN …LOOK ONLY TO THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND HIS WORD>

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