Miskien bedoel hy maar net dat hy sy kinderlewe lank geleer was in die NG kerk se fondamentele riglyne. Maar toe hy uiteindelik die Bybel bestudeer, toe is dit heel teenstrydig met wat hy as kind geleer was deur kerklike dogma en verdraaiings. Daar is tog hoop vir hom want baie mense lees die Bybel en verstaan dit en is wedergebore. Wat hy nou deurgaan is niks nuuts nie, this too shall pass. Dit is net n trial, hoop hy kom deur dit, klomp ware Christene staan en cheer vir hom (verlore skapie) om weer die pad te kry. :clap: hou uit en aan tot die einde toe Jaco.

Volgens Pilgrims Progress is Jaco nou in ‘Doubting castle” daar waar die reus jou met n plank slaan en jou toesluit in n donker kasteel. Maar kort voor lank onthou jy van die sleutel wat jy in jou sak dra. Jaco kan kies of hy op die spul dooie geraamtes gaan bly le, en of hy gaan ontsnap. Ek hoop hy oorkom dit en bly glo.

Hans

Tom, May be enough is said. Thanks for your time. At least people can read our conversation and make up their own minds. If God wills we will converse again.

As you wish.

Hans wrote,

Did I say the husband fell in love with another? No. I said the wife fell in love with another. Is it unbiblical to compare marriage to the relationship between Christ an His church?

Is it always the woman who falls in love with another man and never the husband who falls in love with another woman? Shame on you.

Let’s look at the marriage as a metaphor of God’s relationship with his people.

And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. (Jer 3:7-8)

Here God says He had given a bill of divorce. And yet in verse 14 God says “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you.”

If God’s relationship with his saints is likened to a martial relationship between a man and a woman, and indeed it is as you so rightly pointed out, and if it’s always the wife (the believer) and never the husband (Jesus Christ) who orchestrates the divorce, then it proves without a shadow of doubt that the saint can never lose his salvation because you have conceded that the husband (Jesus Christ) will never leave his wife (the believer).

The question is not whether you have a free-will. That’s a given fact. The question is will you ever want to exercise your free-will and decide of your own volition to turn your back on God never to return again?

God will never divorce any of his saints because He fell in love with another.

Did I say the husband fell in love with another? No. I said the wife fell in love with another. Is it unbiblical to compare marriage to the relationship between Christ an His church?

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

You are also twisting the word of God by your hipothesises.

You wrote:How do you know that you are going to love God to the end? To love God means to obey and trust Him and his doctrines.

I agree.

Tom you said:If you say or believe that a saint can wrench open God’s hands and walk away never to return again, you are in effect saying that you are greater than God and that is idolatry. You are making yourself God.

No, I am saying that I will always have a free will, and God in His omnipotence decided that, not me. God did not forsake Israel, but Israel forsook Him. They had the free will to do so.Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye SOLD YOURSELVES, and for your transgressions is your mother put away. (emphasis added)

I have read your series on eternal security, I have studied your series forwards and backwards, to ensure that I am not may-be somehow misguided in my way of thinking on this subject.

Hans wrote.

Tom, so I marry my wife. I love her and she loves me. Somehow after a few years, she come to love another. Will I force her to love me? Never. Why do you think that God will force me or you? Faith in God is not faith that you will not lose your salvation. Faith in God is derived from love for who He is.

Ah, so now you are comparing Almighty God to sinful man to prove your non-biblical doctrine. God will never divorce any of his saints because He fell in love with another. That’s preposterous. It is heinously inappropriate of you to even contemplate something like that.

Solomon is in heaven. I can guarantee that.

How do you know that you are going to love God to the end? To love God means to obey and trust Him and his doctrines. The doctrine that a saint can lose his salvation is not of God and therefore you cannot say that you love Him. You are not loving Him but distrusting Him.

Of course God will never force you to do anything against your will. But 2 Corinthians 7:10 is not talking about His will but the saint’s will. It says the saint WILL never regret his salvation and turn his back on God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 and 12:14-17 do NOT teach that a saint can lose his salvation. On the contrary Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a saint to lose his salvation. Verse 6 says “If (NOT WHEN) shall fall away.” It sketches an hypothetical case that IF it were possible for a saint to lose his salvation, it would mean that Jesus would have had to be crucified again and THAT is IMPOSSIBLE. So, what he is saying is that just as impossible as it is for Jesus Christ to be crucified again, so impossible it is for a saint to lose his salvation again.

Was Esau saved and then he lost his salvation?

There are no Scriptures that say directly of indirectly that a saint can lose his salvation. In fact Jesus said directly that a saint CANNOT lose his salvation.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one. (Joh 10:27-30)

If you say or believe that a saint can wrench open God’s hands and walk away never to return again, you are in effect saying that you are greater than God and that is idolatry. You are making yourself God.

You still haven’t read my series on Eternal Security. There I deal with most of the verses you mention. So please, read it. if you will. I am not going to waste my time with you . If you deliberately and rebelliously refuse to believe Jesus, then I cannot debate you any longer.

I have not made a careful study of Solomon, but as far as I can recall he will open his eyes in hell. I did not see that he repented after his wives drew him away from God.

I have answered you on numerous occasions that only if I love God till the end I will be saved. Not by works, that I might boast, but by love/faith and from that the gift of grace that do the work in me. God already knows if I am saved, for He knows my end.

There is nothing God’s Spirit can not do, but most certainly He will definitely not force me to do anything against my own free will.

The onus lies with me to love God, and keep on loving God or not.

To believe that a saint can lose his salvation is biblical. Heb. 6:4-6 and Heb 12:14-17 sais it directly and there are many, many, other scriptures that sais it indirectly.

Hans,

The truth of the matter is you have not turned your back on God, your love for God have not diminished, your flesh got the upper hand. Should you however continue on this road of sin, because you came to love this sin, the Spirit of God will reprimand you, and should you persist in sin, then He will withdraw from you, and you will be lost forever.

The facts are that a truly saved person will never regret his salvation and turn his back on God (2 Corinthians 7:10). Are you planning to turn your back on God and lose your salvation? No, of course not because it is always the ohter guy who does something so horrendous as that and never you. It reminds me of the Pharisee who prayed, “I thank thee, that I am not as other men are.” You are never like other men.” It is always the other guy who leads an habitual sinful life and never you.

What about Solomon? You haven’t answered my question on him yet.

If you believe that the Spirit bears witness to your salvation, why do you doubt his ability to see you through to glory? Or is it you on whom the onus rests to see yourself through to glory?

I can assure you that the Spirit of God will never withdraw from you and be lost forever. How do I know? Jesus promised, ” I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.”

To believe that you can lose your salvation is unbelief and unbelief is a sin which you need to confess to the Lord.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6)

You said:It is not only God who knows what the true condition of your faith is. You too must know it and if you don’t you ought to do the following. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Co 13:5)

I totally agree. I did say we can know. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Heb. 6:4-6) (Heb 12:14-17)

Hans

I asked you a question which you did not answer. Did the apostle Peter always walk in the Spirit of Truth?

The fact that one can repent and be forgiven is proof that a truly saved saint can never lose his salvation.

It is not only God who knows what the true condition of your faith is. You too must know it and if you don’t you ought to do the following.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Co 13:5)