This article was forcibly removed from DTW, however please see article and reasons as to why it was removed here to Jennifer Strydom’s blog: Exposing Wolves
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Professor Johan Malan – Undercover Calvinist?
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This must grieve you deeply Deborah. You did not invite this and were obviously reluctant to address it but had no choice due to this attack.
Yes, grieving I am. I did not want this at all. I was actually shaking when I posted this article because I wanted to keep this silent and continue to pray for him (not that I am going to stop praying for him), but unfortunately due to the attack on me and falsely accusing me I had to defend myself.
I have cried a lot today.
It is so easy to denouce calvinism as a lie. Here, I will do it: Calvinism is a lie and doesn’t line up with the Bible. It is that easy to say. So, why doesn’t any other person do that? Because they either: 1) Secretly agree with calvinism, or, 2) They are afraid of offending a supporter of theirs that is calvinist.
Debs,
My heart bleeds for you right now. I will pray that God keeps you safe in his loving arms.
If I may give my 2c worth….OK, maybe it will be worth even less than that…
How about you start to TEACH or discuss…as in, without naming names…just TEACH the TRUTH vs LIES…like H.A Ironside did.
When one is equipped with the TRUTH, he/she will soon find who are the wolves.
The thing is, there are many well read/educated bloggers here (regarding the Gospel), you guys can easily distinguish between what is the whole truth and what is not.
Then there are the ones like me. I came here because I wanted to learn. Some concepts in the Bible I do not understand and would love for someone to explain his/her understanding of it. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead us to the whole truth, yet, could it not have been the Holy Spirit leading me here? I didn’t end up here because of some name that was mentioned BUT because of a specific word I entered.
Sorry if I’m stepping on your toes OR if I’m speaking out of turn OR if I’m going against what you feel is God’s calling for you. Please, I’m really a nobody, a sinner, depending on God’s grace for my salvation….so if I offended you by this post, please forgive me and let me know that I’m out of line.
Also, if you do not want to post this, I’ll totally understand.
With ALL my love in Christ.
Debs, I believe that a lot of people who claim to be true Christians have not taken the trouble to understand what Calvinism truly represents. I for one in the past mixed and worshipped with them in total ignorance. When I eventually found out that this definition below is what it represents I was horrified because this is certainly NOT what I read into the scriptures and it is an insult and blasphemous attack on the character and integrity of a holy God.
If this indeed is what they BELIEVE then I’m totally appauled…it goes against the grain of a God ; For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.
The other precious gift that God gave mankind was CHOICE. From the very beginning in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve where given freewill (CHOICE). Throughout the OT the Israelites where given CHOICE…ie the road or path that leads to life or that, that leads to death. The CHOICE between blessings and curses. Sadly they more than often chose the latter and chose to even build idols.
With the great gift of SALVATION there comes the other gift as well, CHOICE.
God never made us into robots…some for heaven, some for hell. What an insult.
This is NOT about character assassination of PEOPLE but about the character assassination of a HOLY, JUST and RIGHTEOUS GOD.
…And if you read into the doctrine of Calvinism you will find a lot of truth but laced with lies…good food mixed with poison.
Satan’s tactics all along.
Micheline
Nope you are absolutely right, this is a plan of mine and I am going to start soon. There are many things I want to speak about that are very pertinent to the Church right now regarding understanding the true gospel of Jesus, stuff that you just never hear preached. You can also give me concepts under the general comments section and I will write articles on them too. Hows that sound?
Anyone who TRULY REPENTS and DIES to the OLD MAN and TURNS to GOD and ACCEPTS HIS ATONEMENT OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST’s DYING on the cross at Calvary for THEIR SINS is SAVED.They chose to do so. After this THE COMFORTER comes in and helps and CAUSES the desire to serve Him and to hate sin. The person will never be the same again. Yes, there will still come times when we sin again but we will hate the sin and be uncomfortable with it until we deal with it. It is an ongoing process.
Nobody has an excuse…even those that have done awful and terrible things.
Karla Faye Tucker who committed an awful, callous and cruel murder was a changed and truly regenerated person. She went to the death chamber bravely and with acceptance after George W Bush refused her clemency. She knew her Saviour…there can be no doubt about that. There have been many testimonies like this…including the slave trader who wrote Amazing Grace, John Newton.
@ Micheline:
Thank you for your comment and it is obvious that it comes from a sincere heart and a love for the truth of God.
If you will refer to Michael’s post above, you will find valuable information on what the true Gospel is and what it is not. Many of those who post here give gems of truth when countering error.
Debs has been called to be a watchperson on the wall first and foremost. It is a good suggestion to sprinkle in some good solid doctrine. However, it is the primary focus of DTW to expose the deeds of darkness. And it is up to each believer to do their Bible study and ground themselves in solid doctrine. That is a challenge today due to all the pablum that is coming out of the pulpits and all the truth laced with lies.
You must be doing that as you refer to Dr. Ironside as a companion to your Bible study. And from your words you are hungry for the truth of the Lord and want to grow deeper in grace and knowledge of Him. Oh that there were more hearts inclined to God as yours is!
I am glad that you found DTW and feel a comradery here and the fellowship we share. Yes, there are detractors who post here, but they provide an opportunity to share the truth and some even come around. Debs has a true ministry here, a calling that is so needed in the Church today.
May the Lord richly bless you and guide you as you seek to serve Him as we all eagerly await His call to take us home. And please toss out any questions you may have – we all have them – and you will get biblical answers. And by doing so- I speak for myself – it causes me to dig deeper and learn!
Debs, that sounds great, fantastic!
————————————————————–
Last night I read two articles on that website you mentioned above, “For the Love of His Truth Ministries”. I went to bed in a state! Here I thought I was saved because I made the choice to follow Christ. They say that who am I to make that choice, they say one is self-righteous if you make that choice, they say that God will see if He wants your love or not!!! So why on earth would God put me here?????????, for fun, to toy with me and the life He’s given me????????
Well, you can imagine that I had a lot of questions for God during my prayer.
While praying, I believe the Holy Spirit gave me this:
JOHN 3:16.
“the world” – meaning EVERYBODY and everything in it
“whoever” – meaning ANYONE or EVERYONE
Isn’t He just the best. Where that article by a man (and his version of the Gospel)creates confusion and turmoil, ONE verse in the wonderful WORD OF GOD, sets everyone free and gives them peace. God presents everything perfectly and then some men go and mess it all up.
————————————————————–
Micheline
If only all Calvinists would somehow come to think like you. My goodness what a joyous day that would be and the Angels in heaven would sing out the loudest they’ve ever sung. Something so simple yet it alludes them. They instead pride themselves on the fact that God has chosen them over someone else because they believe in the doctrine of Predestination and not the other person. Their salvation relies on believing in predestination! If you stop believing in this, then you are no longer chosen.
@ Micheline:
Yes, you can see why Deborah takes such a strong stand against Calvinist/Reformed theology. Because it GUTS the GOSPEL! Quite frankly,
I don’t see how anyone can be saved with this FALSE gospel. It is from
the very pit of hell. But it is so cleverly mixed with truth and you will even find some websites run by Calvinists who claim to be discerners and they will expose false teaching, but they THEMSELVES are false teachers!
Oh and they take John 3:16 and they twist it like a pretzel and say that when it says “everyone” it means all the “elect”, not everyone in the world.
There seems to be a trend with Bible teachers who are spot on in certain areas and yet go soft on false doctrine when it comes to Calvinism. That is such a mystery to me! I chalk it up to the apostasy across the board in the Church. Mankind idolizing mankind and caring more about relationships than the truth of God. That is such a trap.
One of the most dangerous teachers in my view is Pastor John MacArthur. He softpedals his Calvinist/Reformed views to attract a broader audience, but he is firmly in that camp. He knows how to tickle the ears and serve up a mixture of truth and error. Deborah has warned of him here. Also, Paul Washer who has attracted many in the Christian community with his passionate sermons and yet he holds to a false gospel! Deborah has exposed him here also.
Blessings to you!
If you stick with the men of God, the solid expositors who have gone on to their reward such as H.A. Ironside, Clarence Larkin, John R. Rice, as a companion to your study of the Bible you can’t go wrong. Always test everything by the Word of God, but there are reliable teachers and you won’t find them in a “Christian” bookstore. You have to search online for these gems.
I state that I post all emails as comments, so it’s just better to comment.
——–
Email from Madelien
Sent: 15 December 2012 04:02 PM
To: Deborah (Discerning the World)
Subject: Professor Johan Malan – Undercover Calvinist?
Hi Debs,
This is just a personal message. I’m not a genius with words, and also I just wanted to send you a message of encouragement.
I am very sorry to see all of this. Reading your letters I can see that you are reacting emotionally because of the strained / broken relationship and whatever things that happened. You cannot let your hurt feelings get the better of you, then you lose perspective.
I appreciate your site, and have taken off many people from our site because of your warnings. I do not have the time to spend on research like you do, and I trust your judgement and agree with your Biblical spiritual views.
I know Prof personally, and I know how outspoken he is against Calvinism. I also know that he does not make any compromise. Be careful not to give people a bad name that are truly proclaiming the Gospel and the Word of God in truth. It saddens me just as much to see people do the same to you, your site reaches many people and you do a wonderful work. Many people do not want to stand up for the truth, and you do not hesitate to. I appreciate that. All I ask is that you check your motive for this article. I don’t know you, but I know what it feels like to be disappointed and hurt by people. We must work together to build the Kingdom of God.
Love in Jesus,
M
From: Discerning the World
Sent: 15 December 2012 04:46 PM
To: Madelein
Subject: RE: Professor Johan Malan – Undercover Calvinist?
Dear Madelein
Thank you for your email. I appreciate it. I did not want to post this article, I was force to post it to defend myself – accusations against me. This communication with Prof Malan was from many many months ago and I have been praying for him all this time. My motives are pure and simple – I am defending accusations made against me my Moriel Ministries where they said, “Coming to our attention and because of her continuous efforts to slander Jacob on her blog as well as recent accusations towards Professor Johan Malan where he was accused as being friends with Calvinists“.
Johan Malan might be outspoken against Calvinism on one level but on another level he compromises with Calvinists. It is perfectly clear from his writings (in the article) that this is the case, and to have CALVINISTS translate some of his books for him.
Re-read the article again Madelein all the evidence of Malan leading a double-mind is there. Go and look at “For the Love of His Truth Ministries” and read the utter rubbish on their website. In fact why don’t you contact them and ask them how big friends they are with Prof Malan and ask them if Grant really is translating some of his books for them – all the while adding some Calvinistic flavour to them. Do your own research.
Now, you have two choices after reading the article, you can continue to follow Johan Malan who clearly compromises, or you can follow Jesus Christ who allows for NO compromise.
It’s not nice finding out that someone you trusted is not who they say they are. I wept for days after all these emails communications with Prof Malan. And then I started to pray for him, praying that he would stop what he is doing, denounce Calvinism and stop being friends with these people…months have gone by, but he has not. Now Moriel Ministries has accused me out in public and I needed to defend myself – it was not what I wanted, but maybe it was God’s timing.
Debs
[Edited 19/12/2012: So Madelein unsubscribes from receiving emails. She chooses to compromise and follow false teaching. Clearly she is a Calvinist sympathizer as well.
@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
Yes, can’t wait to hear that singing and NOBODY or ANYTHING, above, on or below this earth will EVER rip me from the arms of JESUS.….isn’t that also a promise somewhere in the Word?
How do some people keep missing these promises. A child knows this!!!!
@ Redeemed:
Tell me about it….I can’t find any books written by HA Ironside. There are some articles online….but I must admit, it’s better having a book in your hand.
Thank you for adding a few other authors, I’ve never heard of them. Many thanks.
Blessings!
@ Redeemed:
Beautiful and a strong message from you, thank you very much for this.
If I may answer you on the above. Last night I somehow ended up on a another website (don’t know how, when I started closing my tabs I saw this as one of the tabs) with the name “corner-something” I think. I was upset after reading some of it. I saw the most horrid name calling, mud-slinging etc. and this from so-called children of God.
When people saying they love God and then use such language as calling fellow believers “harlots of Satan”, I go into a cold sweat and want to run away. I was terrified that I was getting some of my information from the wrong sources and because Debs’ name was mentioned, I felt frustrated, because I come here for a lot of answers. I do believe after praying this morning, I have peace about this.
You say that Debs has been called as a watchman – Can God change one’s calling to say for instance a teacher of the Word, using what one has discovered and learnt from past experience….or does one always stay a watchman?
Anyhow, I’m glad to be here, love to be here and I am learning a lot….and for this I’m grateful.
(P.S those guys on that website scared the living daylight out of me, not the type of people you want as friends, that’s for sure.)
Another email moved to comments:
——-
From: Valerie
Sent: 15 December 2012 04:29 PM
To: Deborah DTW
Subject: Elmarie and Grant
Praying for you Deborah.
I pray that bitterness won’t take root in your heart over the things that Elmarie and Grant have said and done.
Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
God is able to make you stand Deborah. God uses all things in our life to draw us closer to Him.
–
In His Grace,
Valerie
Dear Valerie
I am not bitter. I was terribly hurt by them a long time ago, but I forgave them LONG AGO.
Now the issue here is: calling out FALSE TEACHING. Understand?
Don’t try and muddle the waters and say I am bitter or whatever – this is FAR from the truth. The truth is CALVINISM and Johan Malan’s leanings towards it.
Deborah
Micheline,
I have just purchased a book by Dr Ironside, I also prefer to have a book in hand. You can buy them on Amazon, ebay, and other places, but I got mine from this site
http://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch?keyword=dr+henry+ironside&mtype=B&hs.x=14&hs.y=12
Micheline , sorry I meant to add that you can use the search button in the top right of that site. Just search for Dr Harry or Henry Ironside.
Valerie, your words come across as highhanded as if you need to correct Deborah. She has made it PLAIN that she moved on after the Swarts betrayed her. Would YOU have done that? As if you need to instruct Deborah about this as if you are some kind of expert on being betrayed by a trusted friend.
Your words are not edifying and obviously you have missed the greater point of why this came out and why Deborah had to address it. You need to be more
discerning as to what people say and more considerate of their feelings.
@ Truthful Conversation:
Thank you so much for the link. I’m going to check it out right now!
Thank you!!!!
@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
How sad I am that you responded to my genuine concern for you with such anger. I really didn’t see that coming.
I agree that Calvinism is false, but our fight is not against flesh and blood.
I know I am guilty of coming across too harsh as well. I will take this to heart and ask the Lord to help me to express His truth in a more loving way. The last thing I want to be is a clanging cymbal, but I do want to speak only the Truth.
I only hope that you will re-read my comment and see that it was meant to encourage not to attack or muddle the waters.
Nothing I can do about it though if that is the way you intend to interpret my message.
By His Grace,
Valerie
Micheline,
You’ll also find most (if not all?) of Ironside commentaries and topical and devotional books @ http://lifelineprinting.com/ironside.htm
I have most of his commentaries in electronic format, and I too can testify that they are a very helpful Bible study companion. Of course he was not perfect, but there are few commentaries (if any) that match his.
@ Micheline,
I got 21 of Ironside’s commentaries in e-Format from David Cloud’s “Fundamental Baptist Digital Library 6.0″ in the “THE TREASURY OF RARE DISPENSATIONAL COMMENTARIES” Section. There’s lots of good material in this collection. You can check it out @ http://www.wayoflife.org/publications/digitalbooks.html.
(Debs, feel free to post this link or to send it to Micheline by email. My intent is not to promote David Cloud’s material here)
@ Micheline:
You can now find books online in pdf form for free of Ironsides. I have his entire Bible commentary plus a dozen or so books. I did buy before for my kindle, but pdf’s can be uploaded online. I also have his old book Bible commentaries, all but 1 which I either lent or lost. Anyways on ebay, there is a Baptist group that sells a dvd for about 9.99, or if you email Deborah, I will send her the pdfs via email.
Hi Debs, me again!
Good to see you guys, Michael and Redeemed, still contending!
Isn’t it amazing how “Christians” forever move the goalposts–wider and higher for their teams and narrower and lower for the other sides!? What I find gobsmacking is that they can’t even see what they are really doing. Or I hope they can’t. I’d hate to think people deliberately deceive.
I noticed when it comes to a straight answer, these goalpost-movers then dodge around the actual point or points one tries do deal with. They simply don’t answer them. Whenever you keep coming back to the point(s) they keep up the same tactics.
I noticed Professor Malan and Valerie did the same thing above.
(Note Valerie’s “God uses all things…” No, Valerie, He doesn’t! What the Bible actually says is, “All things work to the good for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Enormous difference!)
When those who argue in circles realize you are not going to be defleced from the point, they descend into accusations. They don’t answer, quite simply, because they can’t. They can’t because they don’t have the answer(s) or they would answer straight. It’s that apparent. And those who do know what they’re doing will hope their bluff works. Deceivers are bluffers.
It’s incredible when you know people, as I do, who are atheists and agonistics and even pagans who would not succumb to that sort of thing.
I have had a “Christian” shaking with rage at me because I had the temerity to quote Scriptures to back a point–just like you do, Debs.
What these people show, and are usually oblivious to the fact that they are showing it, is they hate the word of God.
Here in Britain we get a Queen’s speech on TV every Christmas day. I never watch it but, as my wife and I were in the home of ecumenical friends one Christmas, I watched it then. When the queen made a comment on what all the “great” faiths–had in common, I was miffed, to say the least. So I merely asked, rhetorically, “What about, ‘I am the way the Truth and the life; no man can come to the Father but by me?’”
The anger which ensued from the lady of the house was quite astonishing.
She shouted, “That’s not for the queen to say! That’s for Billy Graham to say!” (Obviously she was as ignorant of the teaching of Billy Graham as she was of true Christianty.)
Though she shouted at me, her anger was really at Christ. They were His word’s, not mine. It was a personal attack on the Lord of Lords and King of Kings, not on me. My friend would not have been aware of that though.
This friend, a churchgoer, also made disparaging comments about what Paul taught, following it with, “And I don’t like a lot of what Jesus Christ taught either.”
At least she honestly voiced what many ecumenists do really believe. I’ve even heard a church-goer calling Paul a homosexual. Other church-goers, especially the feminists, see him as a misogynist.
But my friend’s point, regarding Paul and the Saviour, was alluding to their unloving and judgmental statements. She obviously thought my differentiating between other faiths–and using Christ’s very Own words to back it–was unloving and judgmental.
I notice your critics take up the same cudgel, Debs.
I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s common among those who do not have a love of God’s word, even when they think they do.
Nicky Gumbel of Alpha fame, says that he never likes to be critical of others. But he didn’t mind openly calling Baptist ministers bigoted men. Yet the same Mr Gumbel calles Islam a great faith. (That is NOT a joke, nor am I being sarcastic. [Please check "Alpha the Unoffical Guide" by Elizabeth McDonald & Dusty Peterson. I've given it a plug on Amazon.])
When people do as you do, Debs, and actually heed Jude 3, and bear in mind 2 Tim 4:3 they are often called Pharisaical (while their detractors ignore or overlook the COMMANDS of I Thess 5:21 and I John 4:1).
I find that odd. You see Jesus castigated the Pharisees for putting traditions above the word of God–a la the Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinists and other mainstream groups. Yet those people do not even see that they are doing the very same things with tradition as the Pharisees did and are passing judgment on those obeying God’s word.
When people accuse you of being judgmental or of bearing a grudge, it shouts out one thing loud and clear to me: That’s their own concept of what is judgmental and what bearing a grudge truly is. That suggests, to me at any rate, that if they would stand up for something then they would do so judgmentally and also with a grudge.
Why else would they think that way?
Also, it saves them with having to deal with the actual point and salves their consciences simultaneously.
I notice that it has been suggested to you that you shouldn’t name names. This same suggestion has been aimed at Dave Hunt is many a time and oft slagged by Calvinists, Catholics and ecumenists who will not deal with the issues at hand that he deals with. Instead, they do complicated dances and jigs around those issues which Dave exposes that contradict Scripture.
Dave Hunt names names when they are leading others astray. He follows an example: the Apostle Paul. Jesus did the same: Herod, e.g., was named when Jesus called him a sly fox.
Perhaps, sometimes, you don’t like contending for the faith, Debs. I often shrink from it. More shame me! And i often do so because it hurts people and it makes enemies. Unless we are Hitlers or jihadists, we don’t want to hurt, offend or make enemies. It’s human.
But sometimes we must hurt. It’s not to give offence but to save people from damnation. Sadly, people take great offence at that, though it is not given.
Christ gave offence and knew He was doing so. Imagine being called a “whitewashed sepulchre, rotten, full of dead men’s bones”!
As time get’s shorter we have to do those things especially when the truth demands it–and it does so more often than not. If we don’t fight to uphold the truth–God’s Word [John 17:17]–we are not showing people love. Let detractors think us Pharisees or unloving when we fight for truth.
Here’s a thought-provoking point: Although Jesus strongly rebuked the Pharisees, some Pharisees were saved, Paul being the most famous. And it was the Pharisees who strove against the Saduccees for Paul’s defence. The New Testament nowhere mentions anything of a single Saduccee being saved. Saducees were the ecumenics of their day, mixing the word of God with Greek philosophy among other things. They were the “broad-minded” of their way. They professed the broad way when Jesus professed the narrow way!
Perhaps Jesus’ rebuking of the Pharisees so often was due to His hope that they could be corrected. We never find Jesus getting into scathing rebukes with the Saduccees–not even for His Life in front of the Saduccee priests. His famous rebuke to them was, “You err because you know not the Scriptures.” And He gave them an explantion as to why.
He wasn’t talking of the words of Scripture per se–which they would have known verbatim–but of knowing their essence [Matt 22:29]. A lot of Christians can quote Scripture verbatim but they read it through their own paradigms, ignoring the exhortation of Poverbs 3:5. We see that often on these blogs–which is actually the main thing (in a sense) what this site is dealing with.
It is also what this recent controversy about the Midrash and the like is all about. I wish to deal with that as soon as posss.
I hadn’t given it that much thought before. Jewish theology as a whole has held a fascination for me for almost fifty years. But it wasn’t until I was shocked by the diatribe again Debs by someone connected with Moriel Minstries that I feel compelled to reply, especially in the light of what I now see the essense of what Moriel is teaching. And I am saddened to see what that actually is.
I have Debs to thank for pointing that essense out.
Keeping fighting the Good Fight fight, Debs, and all you other brothers and sisters too. We have no option.
If God be for us, the devil can fire at us all we wants. His time is short anyway. He knows it and so do we. God help those who cannot or will not see it.
@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
Deborah, I am amazed (don’t know why) and yet smiled at the many things in common as I read your thread. I had my own run in’s with Elmarie (as Red clover) on FB regarding Calvinism. She is very insistent/persistent and so interesting to see some of this here (didn’t know much about her, nor that she had a site).
As for the bitter root, someone used that same terminology with me, interesting that they have these “feelings” that they want to share, that they imply come from God. Yet I had no bitterness in me over Jacob, and in fact that bitter root the person suggested was defiling many, has to do with what these false teachers are doing, selling their birthright for one morsel of meet.
Many times they will suggest they know what you are feeling, or mischaracterize what you are doing. I’m sorry, I have to smile at the suggestion that you not judge another man’s servant, (as they are judging you in the process).
We can only smile or shake or head at the irony, pray for them, sometimes explain patiently to those who mean well, but I’m guessing you ask Him to search your motives, as I do, and we are looking for the truth in order to not compromise HIS TRUTH…
Anyways, there will always be the “can’t we get along-ers” and the “false unity” and the “helpful Christian friend” who might be the one who hurts you the worst. Thankfully, we look to Him for our approval. I do pray that you will get time always at His feet being revived and strengthened in His Word. (Ps 119:24-28, Luke 10:38-42)
God bless :) Holly Sprenger Garcia is my full name on Facebook, I am out in the open (as Jacob suggested we were not).
Hi Debs Just to tell you that I was deeply moved by your anguish and prayed a prayer of tears. was so relieved when I read all the above just now.Thanks to our Magnificent Father. :0
Micheline, here are some links to check out for Ironside commentaries.
Amazon is going to Kindle versions, but I don’t like that because I like to underline and make notes and highlight and you can’t do that on a screen.
http://www.lifelineprinting.com/ironside.htm
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/illustrations-of-bible-truth-hardback/henry-allan-ironside/pd9498
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1/192-1408288-1473815?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=H.%20A.%20Ironside&ie=UTF8&search-alias=books&sort=relevancerank
Note: Amazon is having some killer sales at the above link right now. Marked down.
Very reasonable. Very limited stock – so won’t last long!
Valerie
Anger? There was no anger in my comment, non at all.
Amen, and Amen Martin!
Hi Holly
Very very very happy to meet another sister in Christ. We are so few and far between. As the days go by the more I see compromise… it saddens me to no end. I am trying to save people out of false teaching and they think I am causing trouble and instead they run head on into it. Sad, sad, sad.
I am not on facebook. But I will check you out never the less.
*hugs*
It is my pleasure Micheline, I know I can get Dr Ironside’s pdf’s/articles/ebooks online, but as you mentioned too, I much prefer a book in hand. I have a tablet now but I don’t use it for reading. I hope you find a book that will bless you.
Deborah,
When I was writing the initial email to you, the verse in Romans came to mind about God making you able to stand. I looked up the verse and copied the whole verse over IN CONTEXT. The part about not judging was not really the point of what I was trying to say, but I included it because it was part of the whole verse.
I guess that it was meant to be, I have learned a valuable lesson.
I didn’t say this before, but I was surprised that I sent this to you in a private email and then you made a public spectacle out of it by posting it in the comments section here. You could have asked for clarification in private, but instead you accused me of trying to “muddle the waters”.
I did not accuse you of being bitter. Please re-read my message as coming from a friend and not as a correction as is being assumed. I cannot change what I wrote, all I can do is assure you that I was in no way trying to correct you or divert attention from the subject… which again I was not even addressing on this thread, but in private once I realized that there had even been a problem with you and the Stewarts. I was genuinely responding to the hurt you must still experience over this matter.
I knew that Elmarie had taken issue with your stance against Calvinism, but I did not know the full extent of the problem. I was in no way trying to hurt you and for the life of me I cannot understand why I am being attacked over my comments.
I have had correspondence with you in the past with no problems, so it took me quite by surprise that you took offense at my email.
Please message me in a private email. I want to be sure that you understand that my comments were misunderstood. I do see how my comments could be taken wrong, but like I said, I can only clarify my intentions and cannot take back the original content. Please forgive me … I did not mean to hurt you in any way.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
By His Grace,
Valerie
Martin, thank you for your words of wisdom. Along those same lines, the uncompromised Gospel is offensive to the flesh – it has to be watered down to be palatible. And those who speak the unvarnished truth will be rejected and hated……….just as our Lord Jesus was.
Deborah,
After re-reading my initial email, I really do see how what I
said could be taken the wrong way.
Please consider my email withdrawn.
I know I said in the previous message that I cannot
take back the original content, but I got to thinking, why can’t I?
Anyway, I will try to be more careful in the future.
I must be quick to hear and slow to speak.
I am however very hurt from all the comments that were made toward me
by others on this blog that simply are not true at all and just speculation.
God knows my heart and I know that they misunderstood me, so I will just have
to let it go and not let it bother me.
By His Grace,
Valerie
Valerie
I am not one bit angry with you. You read into my comment something that was not there. I don’t wanna argue with you. Nothing in my comment was said in anger to you, I was only replying to your comment with the truth of how I know the situation to be. You are allowed to be hurt by what others have said, but again, that is what they read from your comment. So don’t be too upset because you can now see how things could have been taken the wrong way. I am sure others will hug and make up :) I placed your comment online because that is what I state in the ‘Contact Me’ section. I reserve the right to publish emails as comments. Why didn’t you just comment? Yours what not the only email I published.
Valerie, if I came down too hard on you I do apologize. Our sister was under heavy attack and going through a lot of angst. She had made it clear that she was not addressing Prof. Malan or the situation with the Swarts out of any sort of bitterness or anger.
I took your comments to be similar to those given to Job by his friends when he was suffering. When one is suffering one needs friends to be understanding and supportive. You meant well, but your words did not come across that way.
Honest and open conversation is the best. Now we can clear this up and move forward.
May the Lord richly bless you – you have friends here!
Deborah,
I stumbled a few times on your website in the past when I was searching for answers om false teachers that I researched. Then I did not know you ministry and even today I do not know you at all. All I know Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God is absent on this website. I hope not in your life. You are feeding the devil in using discernment as a weapon to destroy other Christians. You are false feeding of the reactions you get from attacks like this on Prof Malan. I do not agree with all that Prof Malan teach, but you were outright looking for trouble. It is clear from this email trail that you were out to get what you want. When he did not agree with you and asked you to realize there are believers on both sides of Armenians and Calvinists, you started to get nasty and pushing your agenda. You are so blinded by your own isolated ministry. I can promise you that you will get little support from any church with your website. I am sure I will not be wrong if I assume that you do not even belong to a church or any denomination.
Just for the record I am of doctrines of grace persuasion but has many Armenian friends who I know are believers and I will see them in heaven. I am also a discerning believer who believe people like Warren, Osteen and the Hinn’s of this world are false prophets. Spurgeon said that if he had to write down the first person he will see in heaven it was Wesley….maybe you can learn from Spurgeon. You god (on purpose small g), is not Elohim, God Almighty but your own loveless selfish heart. Go and bow your knee before God almighty in sorrow and repentance that you can get mercy for the blood thirst way you operate. I am ashamed to be associated with the names christian and discernment after reading this article and the rest on your website.
May you find mercy for what you are doing.
—————-
[Edited 20/12/2012: Prof Malan said: "As for the article that was posted against Arminianism, I do not agree with it at all. But even though Grant and Elmarie posted it, I do not get the impression that they condemn all believers who do not subscribe to their views. If that was the case, they would long ago have thrown out all my articles from their blog."
No Jaco, the fact that they [FOR THE LOVE OF THIS TRUTH MINISTRIES (Elmarie and Grant Swart) have not done so, does not prove their acceptance of non-Calvinists. They teach publicly that Arminians worship a false Christ. They teach Arminians believe a false gospel and therefore are accursed. They have published many articles on the subject of Calvinism and of the dangers of Arminianism and of their condemnation. And they have learned form Spurgeon. They quote him as saying: "I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence…The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next…is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name.” Then they negate all that by stating: "Prof Johan Malan a dear friend and brother of ours" and "Brotherly love goes deeper than doctrines.” Prof Malan cannot both be damned to hell, according to what they teach, and be their brother, unless they truly do believe, contrary to all their public teaching, that "Love Wins".
Jaco, my frustration with Prof Malan was that he would not look at and address the evidence I handed to him. He is satisfied that as a non-Calvinist he is accepted by them and is not bothered about the total condemnation heaped on all Arminians. You say "Just for the record I am of doctrinesf grace persuasion but has many Armenian friends who I know are believers and I will see them in heaven." Do you then also disagree with what they teach?
----------------
[Edited 20/12/2012 - Jaco, do you teach publicly on the Internet? Do you both accept and condemn non-Calvinists? My frustration with Prof Malan also stems from the fact that he speaks against Calvinism and yet has such a close working relationship with them "in the interest of promoting the truth of the gospel". How can that be? ]
—————
[Edited 20/12/2012 - Oh you do preach publicly on the net here: https://www.facebook.com/aboutfaith and Elmarie and Grant Swart from For the Love of Truth Ministries are your FRIENDS, linking your little comments all over the place, These are the people who said that YOUR Arminian serve Baal all the while quoting a Calvinist, Spurgeon.Imagine that.]
—————
[Edited: 24/12/2012 – Jaco De Beer Ek kan jou ‘n voorbeeld gee van ‘n anti calvinis wat calviniste as christene en gered sien. Prof Johan Malan. Translation: I can give you an example of an non Calvinist that views Calvinists as Christians and saved. Prof Johan Malan.
17 Desember om 10:51 NM • Hou van • Likes • 1 Elmarie Swart
Jaco
LOL, you clearly are a Calvinst sympathizer.
Your comment just about sums up the spirit of evilness that lies behind those who sneakily follow other doctrines like Arminianism (works based salvation) and Calvinism (selection).
Your words of judgement will fall short, very very short. Your words and the doctrine you follow condemn you.
Matthew 12:36-37
36 I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will give an account for every worthless word they speak.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
>> has many Armenian friends who I know are believers
PS, Armenians are people from the Republic of Armenia. Arminianism is a doctrine.
It is clear that Calvinism and the support there off is a huge CATALYST in sifting out the rotten apples from the basket.
I guestimate there might be a shift in peoples attitudes towards Calvinism, in other words, more people speaking out against it, but only to blindside them in trapping them into other false teaching. For instance Chuck Smith from Calvary Chapel is anti-anti-Calvinism (so he says) but the doctrines he follows leaves little to be desired.
So I am putting out this warning, just because someone is against Calvinism does not mean they are themselves kosher – check what doctrines they believe in. And those who say they are against Calvinism – do a thorough check to see if they REALLY are, if they list a favorite teacher who is a Calvinist, this is a BIG RED FLAG that they are not telling the truth.
A huge red flag for me should have been Prof Johan Malan’s article on Calvinism that he wrote where he first agreed with Dave Hunt and then went on to side with Calvinism. I never picked up on it, but others did and pointed it out to me – my mother was one of them. When I read the article again I was blown off my chair. It was done so subtly that if you were not paying attention you would not notice.
Fortunately my mother always pays attention. Thanks Mom.
Debs: you said, “I guestimate there might be a shift in peoples attitudes towards Calvinism, in other words, more people speaking out against it, but only to blindside them in trapping them into other false teaching.”
In my case, Your post above was what happened to me only in reverse order. I was looking for answers to the charismatic false teaching that I came out of and got blindsided by Calvinism. “Out of the frying pan into the fire.” The Calvinists can see the wood chips in the eyes of the charismatics but they can’t see the beams in their own.
Having come from a Pentecostal/WOF background I was totally ignorant of Calvinism doctrine. There was a sort of vague sense that the Reformed Church followed some of his teachings, but having followed so many different teachings of the NOLR myself, I was busy untangling myself from that mindset and had not taken the time to investigate the doctrine of Calvin. I had no idea how much Calvin actually altered their whole Christian worldview….yet. I had no idea yet.
I found myself on Ken Silva’s site a couple of years back called the Christian Research Network. It was from there that I started to comment on Mike Ratliff’s blog. I thought we were discussing the Word, but as it turned out Mike was a Baptist turned Calvinist and he was teaching the strong arm of Calvin. Between denials that he was teaching Calvinism and my own naivety, I believed we were discussing Scripture.
I was a bit perplexed because everything I said seemed to be slightly off. I was corrected by Mike over and over. But still I didn’t get it.
Just around that time I got into a bit of a heated debate on another site about Once Saved Always Saved…which I could not see fitting with the Scripture. I went offline with Mike for a couple of emails. He was good in defending the faith on that particular faulty teaching but then our discussion spilled over into the TULIP way of thinking. Duh. I still had no idea…and Mike had no idea that I had no idea. So….when I made a remark about not being able to follow a God that deliberately destined people for hell…he became instantly offended. Suddenly I was on the naughty list for being in opposition to his attempts to teach the group. Just a few sentences back in the email, he had emphasized to me that Calvin’s teachings weren’t what mattered. But as it happened, it only took a couple of emails to end the discussion. Yes Calvinism did matter and yes, it was his ambition to teach by the light of Calvin’s 5 point theology. I answered with one word. “Understood” and never returned.
Due to his exasperated response to me, I knew there must be more to Calvinism than Calvin being just one of the historical teachers that had graced the planet with a bit of theology and few colourful incidents (including murdering a former friend of his). Thus began my search for a bit more understanding of Calvinism.
Calvinists are great apologists. But then so are Roman Catholic scholars and Judaizers and Midrash enthusiasts and cult followers all the way from the Kingdom Hall slaves to Dominion Mountain builders. The confusion when you follow the Word plus a man or angel’s teaching is endless.
The thing is…most of us get on tangents or have been on tangents in our lifetime. And God keeps us humble if we can admit it. Every big name that has gotten off track was once a humble servant of the Most High. For that matter…Satan himself fits that description. If it can happen to others it can happen to little old me. Rooted and grounded in the Word. That’s the only way for me.
The works of the flesh are so insidious. We must guard against them not by slapping each other on the back, and saying how great we think we are (Piper and Warren syndrome) but by opening our hearts to the only the wisdom that counts. Too many big names have stumbled onto the pathway of self-infallibility. Even big name apologists sometimes just end up preserving their own denominational strongholds (beliefs). Even if God himself would broadside them with the simple Truth, they wouldn’t “hear” because they are so deeply rooted in their own truth. It would take an earthquake to shake them loose. An “earthquake” is what shook me loose from my WOF/NOLR roots. But that’s a whole different story. Bottom line. If you want truth, God will give it. If you want something else, you’re on your own.
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Carolyn
Yes somewhere on this blog I mention that Calvinism is the spiders web that catches those who fall out of the charismatic camp. Your’s, is an amazing comment, and we can just thank our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that your eyes were wide open because of the Holy Spirit in your life to the deceptions of the charismatics and then the Calvinists! Now you are just a faithful Holy Spirit led Christian, no other name needed. :)
Thanks Debs. Yes, LOL I was the fly that got away!
In my comment that Mike refuted the Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine he was refuting the Baptist position… it may be a bit confusing to some who know that the Baptist OSAS doctrine and the P in TULIP is somewhat the same. Perseverance of the Saints says that due to the sovereignty of the Lord, you cannot lose your salvation. Yes, a bit amusing to me now…as it turns out both doctrinal positions are equally false. They both take the gift of choice from us that God in his sovereign will assigned to us. He will not hold us in anyone’s spider web against our will. Without faith, it is impossible to please God both before and after conversion!
Carolyn
There is a difference between Biblical Assurance of Salvation and Once Chosen Always Chosen-Perseverance of the Saints in the doctrine of Calvinism. I am actually doing an article. Hold yer horsies :)
Here is the article: The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN) this is actually based on an email I sent to someone from Moriel Ministries, of which they never replied.
It just boggles the mind to think that someone can even think and entertain the thought to believe that the Loving Creator of the world predestined a child born in a mothers womb to destined WITHOUT any option but to be destined to burn in Hell…what sort of sick and perverted thinking is this…it is worse than than all the perverted thinkings of Hitler, Goebbels and the most sick and warped thinking of the worst people imaginable.
And to put this tag on A Holy Righteous and Loving Creator shows that such people who can even entertain such doctrine shows they are no less perverted and sick than even the worst people recorded in history.
As for being able to be REBORN of the Spirit TWICE is totally hogwash…bordering on illogical insanity? Christ died only once for our sins…every time you are supposed to be reborn again and again is tantamount or recruscifying the Saviour.
I do agree most wholeheartedly that a lot of people who think they are saved are not because they used the wrong understanding of a false teaching and were hood-winked to think all’s well when it was not. They had fallen victim of a FALSE Jesus and NOT the TRUE JESUS of the bible.
Michael
>> Christ died only once for our sins…every time you are supposed to be reborn again and again is tantamount or recruscifying the Saviour.
Absolutely correct! No where in the bible do we read about people being born again over and over and over. It’s ONCE or nothing. You can’t REVERSE REGENERATION. You are MADE A NEW CREATURE in Jesus Christ. You can’t undo this.
The problem comes in, in understanding the difference between someone that is GENUINELY saved vs someone that is not. We do not know who is saved and who is not, BUT GOD KNOWS. As I said in my latest article, we can fool each other into thinking we are Christians but we can’t fool God.
Carolyn
I really enjoyed reading your comment, you have put so many of my own thoughts into words. I had a sleepless night last night, so I was praying and speakng to the Lord about my circumstances and my heart attitude towards Him and others. It is so easy for us to lay the blame at someone else’s door because we were deceived or uneducated in biblical truth. I went to many different churches over the years, and truthfully, if you had asked me back then what the differences in doctrine were, I would not have been able to tell you. I tried to find a church that ‘felt right’, I cannot begin to tell you how much time and effort that cost me travelling up and down, north and south of the city I lived in. But most importantly it cost me spiritually.
You said in your comment, quote; Bottom line. If you want truth, God will give it. If you want something else, you’re on your own.
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I really can say AMEN to the above, last night I was thinking about the moment I reached that simple realisation.
Thanks for that great article Debs.
Regarding the issue of being born again over and over again, Nicodemus understood it well (even though he was thinking of the natural birth) with his rhetorical question to Jesus:
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
In the same manner as one cannot enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be re-born, you can’t be Born of the Spirit over and over again.
I tell people, if you believe you can be born again, then un-born again, then re-born again again, it probably means you ARE NOT born again.
Thanks for this great clarifying article. I will be pointing people to that.
Jaco De Beer on Facebook said the following about Prof Johan Malan
[Edited: 24/12/2012 – Jaco De Beer Ek kan jou ‘n voorbeeld gee van ‘n anti calvinis wat calviniste as christene en gered sien. Prof Johan Malan. Translation: I can give you an example of an non Calvinist that views Calvinists as saved Christians. Prof Johan Malan.
17 Desember om 10:51 NM • Hou van • Likes 1 • Elmarie Swart
Now why would a Calvinist (Jaco) think that Prof Malan views Calvinists to be genuine Christians? If it was NOT TRUE that Prof Malan was actually an undercover Calvinist.
Hi Truthful Conversation. Just saw your comment #51 now. Thanks.
Was just returning to re-read some of the comments. Between all the regular deeds of the day and looking after my two adorable grandchildren (2 and 5 months), I’m having a bit of trouble keeping some continuity going….but your comments are appreciated.
Hi Deborah,
An ex-member of a home group that is closely connected to Prof. Malan told me something a year or so ago that really didn’t sit well with me. But before I go any further let me state that I do not know with any degree of certainty if what this person told me is true. This ex-home group member is just someone I had a brief chat with after attending a biblical history conference. So please don’t take this as fact…
I was told that Prof. Malan firmly holds to a gap theory view of some sort. I don’t know the exact details of the Prof’s (alleged) preferred version of this theory but it goes something like this:
1. The universe is billions of years old. 2. The planet we live on now is the second earth. 3. In a prehistory era, Satan and his minions inhabited the first earth until God destroyed it prior to the creation of the current earth (apparently there is a single verse somewhere in the bible that proponents of this theory use to support the notion of a second earth but I am not sure where it is).
Now I was somewhat of a Prof. Malan fan at that time that I heard this news and I remember being unsettled by it. But like I have already said, I don’t know if it’s true or not. How does one go about verifying something like this? I suppose the only way is to ask the Prof himself via email…? Well I never got around to doing that and to be honest I haven’t thought about any of this stuff for ages. But then I read your article yesterday and I realised that IF Prof. Malan is in fact a gap theory supporter, it could be a sign that there is some real cause for concern here. I have noticed that dogmatic defenders of deep time (billions of years) always seem to have some other off-kilter theological views lurking in the background somewhere. That isn’t entirely surprising when one considers that the ‘Father of Deep Time’, the geologist James Hutton (1726 – 1797) had an ongoing fascination with the Kabbalah even though he was a church attending Monrovian ‘Christian’. It is worth noting that the occult connections associated with many different aspects of evolutionary thinking are fairly easy to dig up. Charles Darwin’s Masonic grandfather, Erasmus Darwin, wrote reams of nature worshipping poetry that outline the process of evolution in great detail – and he penned these works long before his grandson was even born. And Alfred Russel Wallace (the man who is co-credited with the discovery of natural selection alongside Charles Darwin) was a practicing phrenologist and a spiritualist medium. The bottom-line here is that there is a link between evolution and occult mysticism. So when professing Christians open the door to deep time (and other hallmarks of molecules-to-man evolutionism) they are also opening the door to dodgy theology in some form or another. I do hope that this is not the case with Prof. Malan and if it isn’t that’s great. Praise God! But if he is deep timer or a second earther or a gap theory advocate (or whatever it is that such people prefer to be called) then there may well be bigger problems associated with Prof. Malan than his fence-sitting on the Calvinism issue.
PS While I vehemently disagree with Calvinism (it’s one of the most awful isms out there in my opinion) I am reluctant to say that Calvinists are not Christians because while I think that their views regarding predestination are pretty horrendous, I can see how easy it is to fall into the Calvinist trap. When the typical debates open up between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, both sides use scripture to support their respective viewpoints. In contrast, the Jehovah’s Witness doctrine that Jesus and the angel Michael are the same figure has absolutely no biblical basis whatsoever. Similarly Mormons don’t have any biblical support for their bizarre belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers. As much as it pains me to say this, Calvinists do have a biblical basis for what they believe in the sense that their pet verses appear to support TULIP (at least superficially). That’s why I am willing to give soft line Calvinists some degree of leeway (something I refuse to for Catholics, Mormons, JWs etc who are all guilty of ADDING stuff to the bible that just isn’t there). So when all is said and done, while I don’t think Prof. Malan’s iffy stance of Calvinism is ideal, it’s at least somewhat more understandable then a totally unbiblical gap theory view (assuming that the Prof does actually hold to a ‘deep time’ position in the first place).
PPS Apologies to Prof. Malan if he is not a gap theory proponent. And if he is one, my first question would be WHY?
Deborah – Perhaps you could verify what the Prof’s view is re origins before uploading this post? If what I was told was incorrect then perhaps it would be best not to publish my comments at all. I don’t want to engage in slander of any kind.
Know Hope
Ahhhhhh, you are NOT the first person to say something like this… someone else has told me that he believes something like this. I will get hold of that person and bring them back to the blog to confirm.
Also another thing that is bothersom. Professor Malan is a Professor in ANTHOPOLOGY – The study of humankind including origin and evolution etc etc. It’s a Godless subject. Why does Prof Malan (after he has retired) retain his professor title for a godless subject. Just a thought.
>> I am reluctant to say that Calvinists are not Christians because while I think that their views regarding predestination are pretty horrendous, I can see how easy it is to fall into the Calvinist trap.
God does indeed judge us on what we know (to a point of course). When a Calvinist finds out the truth as to what Calvinism entails (TULIP) and remains a Calvinist then they have NO excuse (according to the Bible) as to why they are following FALSE TEACHING. If a person is a saved person in a Calvinist church finds out what Calvinism is all about and is REPULSED and LEAVES – that person is saved because they did not follow doctrines of demons. See this lady’s comment as an GREAT xample. Calvinism – What would these Pastors have done if they were there? 2013/01/08 at 7:35 am. It goes for any false religion. If you can say that Calvinists are christian then one can say that Catholics are christian too and so on and so on. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, not keep your in bondage, slave to a false religion that will send you to hell.
John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
There is NO such thing as a moderate Calvinist and a Hyper Calvinist either. This is one of Satans biggest lies.
Know Hope is correct Debs.
My brother discussed the Kent Hovind issue with Prof. Malan about five/six years ago and he boldly stated in his reply that Kent Hovind’s six day creation theory was suspect as he (Kent Hovind) left out the “gap theory”.
I also only later sadly learnt that Kent was a Calvinist.
Robbie
Thanks my friend. So from what I remember you saying, your brother discussed this issue with Johan Malan and it came out that he believes in an “old creationist” view, and believes in the “gap theory”.
If he believes in the gap theory it would make sense because it mixes evolution and Christianity together – And being a professor of Anthropology I can see why he would want to try and amalgamate the two.
On checking Kent Hovind is anti-Gap Theory (he is very much against it) http://www.beaconmbc.com/articles/thegaptheory.htm. So what does Kent Kovind actually believe?
Debs
Kent Hovind believes literal 6 day creation and yes, no gaps in his theory.
It was in one of JP’s comments that I noticed his Calvinistic connections. Gonna write him a letter in jail. :-)
If someone cannot believe the very first pages of the Bible regarding creation…sadly, they cannot believe anything else! EVERYTHING then becomes debatable. The creation story is a very simple story, with time frames definately and clearly defined. No faith = no faith.
You know I am not a tipe of person who easy choose a side. I do my homework on what someone say they beleave the Bible tells us.
Now this Jacob prasch taking scriptures out of the Bible to attack Deborah on (that webside of his) on what she says and at the end of it all he says the same things about her and more.
Now again they attack Deborah and not the problem on there teachings, looks like they are hiding something. Sounds like Carte Blanch, the people has answers for everything accept the question.
Kent Hovind’s in jail? Well… all righty then. lol
Seems that Mr. Hovind will spend the rest of his life in prison for tax evasion. Same goes for his wife. http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16451/kent-hovind-dr-dino-guilty-on-all-counts
Seems he missed the verse in the Bible where the Lord Jesus said to render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to obey the laws.
Osito
Days are dark…
And you are right, they attack me personally because they don’t wanna answer dem questions – so they try deflect attention onto me.
If Chris ever reads this blog again I would like to thank him for giving personal Jacob Prasch info about me and my husband. He turned out to be the biggest back-stabber ever. And he always used to say to me, “when people attack you personally, it’s because they are false and can’t contend for the faith Biblically”. HOW WEIRD that Jacob Prasch would do JUST THAT to me. I wonder if Chris is laughing or crying as to the assaults Prasch has leveled against me. I hope he feels some remorse… because if there is none, boy oh boy… I never knew a heart could go from being soft to so hard and full of hate so quickly…
It seems that Prof. Malan is also soft on false teacher Angus Buchan.
He states:
WHAAAAAAT? Choke, gag, choke!
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/AngusEng.htm
It’s amazing what you miss when you just presume someone is OK. I presumed Johan Malan was OK and that was my big mistake… and I never bothered to TEST his words.
So Johan Malan again displays his ‘emergent’ thinking.
Angus Buchan does NOT proclaim a clear message of repentance, never has and never will. I have no idea where Johan Malan gets this from.
Redeemed
I picked that up too! – He also says that he does not doubt Angus has a relationship with Jesus.
You’re right Debs, presumptions let loose:-)… oh I’ve been there a couple of times.
@ Redeemed #65:
In the link regarding Angus B., it is important to note that Anton Bosch joins in and agrees with Malan’s assessment of Buchan. It appears that Bosch and Malan are birds of a feather and have common South African roots. Wouldn’t one think that they of all people would be warning South Africans of the evils of Angus Buchan?
Many people look to Bosch for sound doctrinal teaching. There seems to be a pattern with so many of these people that they do double-speak and are afraid to call a spade a spade.
Dont worry Deborah, God see s everything and if Chris is a true hart Christian he will feel naked. Maby what happend was a good thing, now if they whant to throw rocks at you they must find new ones, because thats been said is now in the past.
You must forgive Chris.
I think Kent stand up againts evolution and for him it was like supporting evolution when you pay tax, because the goverment used that money to amplified and teach evolution and blocked out God.
Osito
You are right, I must forgive him. I will email him and tell this.
And the plot thickens…
Osito, your thinking about Mr. Hovind’s tax evasion is faulty. Governments spend all kinds of tax $$ on things that go against our beliefs, but that is no excuse for not obeying the laws. The Bible is clear that Christians are to pay money owed to the government. Governments are secular, not religious.
Personally I do not think it is imcumbent upon Deborah to write to Chris and say she forgives him. She was attacked publicly by a public ministry and responded publicly. She has made it clear that she forgives those who have betrayed her. If Chris is a true believer it is imcumbent upon HIM to ask her for forgiveness. If he does not see the error of the ways of the organization with which he is affiliated and displays loyalty to, then he needs to come to terms with that. Until he does, he will see any overtures by Deborah as a sign of weakness. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I just think that at this point in time it would be as casting pearls where they will be trampled upon.
The attacks have been of such a vicious nature that after Deborah has defended her reputation and addressed these attacks she should simply wait upon the Lord to work in the hearts of these people and pray that they come to repentance.
I have emailed both Chris and Dion from Moriel Ministries and asked for forgiveness for anything I have done to them, and forgive them for anything they have done to me. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart.
However I will not stop exposing the false teaching of Jacob Prasch from Moriel Ministries
I am very sad to hear that about Anton Bosch, I also thought he was a solid teacher, reliable and not afraid to speak truth. Another one bites the dust….
Also Debs,
I do not think you needed to apologise to Chris or anyone at Moriel, but it was a humble move to make and I applaud you.
“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud,
but giveth grace unto the humble.”
James 4:6 (KJV)
Debs, you have to do what the Spirit leads you to do. You have to do what gives you peace with God. It doesn’t matter what the others end up doing or saying.
I am slowly making my way through the comments and I cannot reconcile the cursing of JP with Christianity. He most certainly does not have peace with God. Starting at #96 on this section:
http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2012/11/19/jacob-prasch-twisting-scripture-the-midrash-way/
He needs to apologize for those personal attacks, not to mention ALL the others. Reading these words makes me sick. Even a godless worldling without any emotional intelligence would feel a need to apologize for such language. How does he think this fits the profile of a child of a loving God? Wow. Well..judgement begins at the house of God. And it has already begun.
We must keep our defence of the gospel civil, as you have Debs. If not, then the provokers, revilers should be silenced. You were right to stop their meaningless talk.
Debs, only a false profit would stoop so low in such personal antagonistic proclamations. Anyone who defends JP’s strife is an accomplice in his wickedness. Sit up and take notice guys! Our vindication will come from God…and we have nothing to fear but the fear of the Living God.
You Go Girl!! I hate false teaching, i beleave you have all the right to question there teachings.
It s part of it to get attack, when I question there teachings and they cant answer me, they call me decieved by the devil.
Redeemed, I dont say what Kent did was right but if the goverment start making laws like we must teach our children evolution at home. Are we going to do it? That s just what Kent maby felt like, i dont know.
Truthful
Regarding Anton Bosch, He is Assemblies of God (AOG) and He also believes in Tongues speaking.
Debs..re: Anton Bosch..ahh okay. I actually emailed him ages ago when I was checking out some things, I must go back to look at past emails. I remember there was something I was not happy with that he had said on some article. Oh boy I am getting old, was just saying to my son earlier today that I have to bang my head to get the old brain working!
Osito, you said:
I think Kent stand up againts evolution and for him it was like supporting evolution when you pay tax, because the goverment used that money to amplified and teach evolution and blocked out God.
I am sorry, but you DID insinuate that Mr. Hovind had good reason for breaking the law and evading taxes. The government in the time of our Lord Jesus was a godless government, even wicked, but Jesus still said to give them what they require.
He also implicated his wife as she followed his instructions and thereby became party to his criminal act. This is truly sad.
Many years ago I knew of a Christian man who got caught up in a movement that said that the government couldn’t force one to pay taxes. He went to prison as did others who believed this lie.
The mentality you are promoting is not biblical. You cannot expect the government to promote Christian theology. The government says that abortion is legal, but that is not justification for withholding taxes owed to the government. You are free to support causes that educate people against abortion and you are free to witness and share the Gospel. Even if a public school teaches evolution, parents are free to teach their children what the Bible says – creationism. We live in a fallen world and have to operate within it.
So I received news of this from an “Anonymous Sheep”———-
Anonymous Sheep said: I want to comment on Anton Bosch. Do you remember his series on discernment that Prof Malan recommended to you? You would think that Anton would practice what he preached? No, he made very short work of Thomas on his ‘Let’s learn together’ facebook page.Anton forbid the people to talk about the sabbath, because it causes division on the page with Seventh Day Adventists and others. Thomas answered a lady that Jesus Christ is our sabbath rest. She wanted to know more, but Anton banned Thomas for a week. Thomas answered her question anyway and Anton kicked him off.Anton has not shown him any grace, only disdain.
Both him and Jaco de Beer and Somerset Morkel mentioned that they ‘have been warned’ about Thomas. Mmm, by whom, I don’t wonder? Anyway, Anton has lost my respect. Something is blinding them
———-
Please NOTE: DTW Retracts this comment. The Anton Bosch Facebook group ‘Let’s Learn Together’ has got nothing to do with Anton Bosch Ministries. Same name – TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE]
Redeemed,
thanks for the teaching on that, helps a lot and makes now more sense to me in a Biblical.
Tom Lessing wrote on his facebook wall:
Osito wrote:
Thank YOU for receiving the exhortation. When we realize the horrible consequence of rejecting Christ it should motivate us to share Him with others and intercede on their behalf that they will receive the free gift of salvation.
May the Lord richly bless you!
Dear Debs, wrt ur correspondence with Prof Malan and he’s responses: I agree with what Madeleine said. I also understand what you and Prof stated. I have great regard for Prof Malan. There was a statement in one article in particular of his which I vehemently disagreed with but that does not mean I must throw the baby out with the bath water. I know that Prof Malan speaks out against Calvinism, I too totally disagree with the doctrine but truth is many of them don’t even know better but they love Jesus with their whole hearts; many others for eg don’t even know about the pre-trib rapture but they love Jesus – they don’t know better today but I can’t judge them in saying they will NOT be raptured. The only condition for someone to be raptured is if they have accepted Christ and follows him. There are a host of pple who don’t hold to this rapture view for various reasons but follow Christ way better than myself who is a fundamentalist in most ways and strongly holds to a pretrib rapture view acc to the Bible. Dave Hunt also mentions dear believers in the Calvinist circle who differ from him but in his articles he won’t easily condemn them but takes on the vile unbiblical doctrine of calvism. Debs I enjoy your articles because they’re biblically sound but I will be very sad if no articles are placed by Prof Malan ever again. There are many times when we just cannot throw out the baby with the bath water. Blessings
[DELETED - READ THE WHOLE CONVERSATION PROPERLY BEFORE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT]
starlight
Have you gone to visit www. for the love of his truth .com website? and see the evil they spew on their blog pages? They insult and mock our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and all the Saints (thats you and me) to hell and back and John Malan is FRIENDS with these people.
Why don’t you email him (Johan Malan) and ask him how he can be friends with these people, who blaspheme our SAVIOUR’S NAME, who mock HIM, with the most heinous false teaching under the sun.
That’s of course if you CARE about Jesus Christ enough to want to take a stand for the GOSPEL!
Remember starlight, it’s JESUS FIRST….. Johan Malan LAST. ok?
I will be putting up new correspondence I’ve had with Johan Malan via email within the next few minutes…
Starlight, you call Calvinism a “vile unbiblical doctrine” and yet you believe that it is fine to have fellowship with those who hold to a “vile unbiblical doctrine”?
The Bible says that light has no fellowship with darkness and you can’t get much darker than a “vile unbiblical doctrine”.
Dave Hunt will answer for what Dave Hunt does. He courageously exposed Calvinism for what it is, but he fell short of out and out calling it a false gospel. Since Dave was raked over the coals for writing his book, he may have felt that he could not go any further. Did you see any of the vicious hateful comments he got from Calvinism defenders?
This is a damaging, dangerous doctrine and it gets a pass because there are Calvinists who speak out against false teachers. But it is the pot calling the kettle black!
How can one who loves the truth overlook the great divide that exists between the true Gospel and their false one as if it doesn’t matter!
Surely it matters to God!
We are called to defend the faith no matter who it offends. I know of 2 Calvinist/Reformed sites that blatantly call free will a lie of Satan. What do you think about that?
The latest one is referenced by Deborah in her response.
AFTER you go there and read the horrible lies of that belief system, then PLEASE come back and tell us what you think about that.
Email conversation with Prof Johan Malan
———–
From: Discerning the World
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 9:27 AM
To: ‘Johan Malan’
Subject: Grants new article
Hi Prof Malan
Please read Grant Swarts latest article: http:// for the love of his truth. com/2013/01/13/free-willism-is-clearly-blasphemy-and-idolatry/
I am just wondering, is Grant speaking about you in the article?
Debs
———–
From: Johan Malan
Sent: 14 January 2013 03:42 PM
To: Discerning the World
Subject: Grants new article
Hi Debs
Thanks for your letter. If this particular article by Grant was true and 100% reflects his personal convictions, then I could certainly be charged of blasphemy and idolatry. However, I don’t think it is aimed at me. Nevertheless, one cannot be glad about it.
Just for the record, I wish to clearly state that, as true believers in Jesus Christ, Grant and I never discussed issues related to Calvinism or Arminianism. My association with Grant was purely based on our our mutual confession of Jesus Christ as Saviour. Their rather strange predisposition to hyper Calvinism never surfaced during our brief meetings.
Grant kindly acceded to my request to translate my book on the kingdom of Satan into English. His language proficiency in English is excellent and he did a very thorough job despite his busy schedule. I can assure you that he never even once tried to twist those statements that are at variance with Calvinistic tenets – neither did he challenge them in his editorial comments. He merely translated everything that I said in a scholarly way, and for his honest approach and objectivity I will always be grateful to him. I never realised that some of my views may have been hurtful to him.
That is where we stand, and I am not going to take issue with him on his commitment to Calvinism. He has his website and I have mine. I certainly do not condone everything that he says, and I am sure he feels the same about me and my articles. Nevertheless, there is enough common ground between us to keep up our good relations. As I have repeatedly said in previous letters, there are good Christians in both camps – Wesleyans and Calvinists.
Thanks for your continued interest in me and my ministry. But how is it that you could slander me after using many of my articles for such a long time, while Grant and Elmarie, who are said to doctrinally on a completely different course than my own, are refraining from personal attacks against me?
Blessings
Johan
———–
From: Discerning the World
Sent: 14 January 2013 06:16 PM
To: ‘Johan Malan’
Subject: RE: Grants new article
Hi Prof Malan
>> He merely translated everything that I said in a scholarly way, and for his honest approach and objectivity I will always be grateful to him. I never realised that some of my views may have been hurtful to him.
Firstly, they are trying to change you into being a Calvinist, he does not care what your book says, their aim is to convert you. In fact they are doing your ministry a HUGE INJUSTICE because people are seeing Calvinists advertising your website. And people who do not know the truth that well, will actually think that If you can endorse Elmaries and Grant’s site them BY GOLLY CALVINISTM MUST BE THE WAY TO GO. But it is NOT.
To say that you never realised that some of your views may have been hurtful to him? I’m sorry? Since when are you ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
>> But how is it that you could slander me after using many of my articles for such a long time, while Grant and Elmarie, who are said to doctrinally on a completely different course than my own, are refraining from personal attacks against me?
I did not slander you, I asked you a question. Are you in agreement with Calvinism and you refused to give me an answer. You were middle ground.
Someone exposed on the internet and YOU SAID I claimed you were befriending Calvinists. I just WONDER WHO THIS PERSON IS WHO SAID THIS? I REALLY do wonder. So I had to put my case forward. This person who made this claim made it sound like I was a liar etc. So that is why I told my side of the story – the truth. I never called you any names so how can it be slander? What It was, was a Biblical approach to reproof, correction and instruction.
Elmarie and Grant wont attack you Prof Malan UNTIL SUCH TIME as you take a STAND FOR THE GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST and confront them on their FALSE TEACHING. Then wait and see how hard they kick back at you.
I’ve had all my personal information put out on the internet, even my cell phone was put online by the Swarts in cohoots with another guy by the name of EJ Hills. Even my husband’s work address has been exposed. I’ve even had my illness of Epilepsy dragged out and exposed on the internet, they have called me mentally ill and demon-possessed. And Elmarie finds this all very funny and LIKES the vicious website setup to attack me. What kinda Christian fruit is that?
But it’s fine, I still won’t back down, I will still STAND UP for the Gospel of Jesus Christ – no matter what.
When you find common ground, i.e., compromise with people who can speak such utter terrible things about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ then you will obviously have a comfortable seat at Satan’s dinner table where you and Grant and Elmarie and everyone else seated there that are willing to compromise, can all talk about that ‘common ground’ between everyone at the table. Satan loves common ground, it’s his favourite subject.
The day you come and tell me you are no longer in agreement with Calvimsim and compromising with Calvinists I will remove that article off the internet…
I care enough about you, to argue with you like this because I am desperately trying to get you to OPEN YOUR EYES to the truth of the matter.
But there is nothing I can do but pray, and hope the Holy Spirit shows you that anyone that insults JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD is not worthy of finding common ground with.
Debs
———–
From: Johan Malan [mailto:johan@bibleguidance.co.za]
Sent: 14 January 2013 08:00 PM
To: Deborah
Subject: Slander
Is this not slander?
“Also another thing that is bothersom. Professor Malan is a Professor in ANTHOPOLOGY – The study of humankind including origin and evolution etc etc. It’s a Godless subject. Why does Prof
———–
From: Discerning the World
Sent: 14 January 2013 08:33 PM
To: ‘Johan Malan’
Subject: RE: Slander
Nope. Where did I call you any names?
Are we not allowed to QUESTION you doctrine and the teachings you profess to hold too, Professor Malan?
———–
From: Discerning the World
Sent: 15 January 2013 07:36 AM
To: ‘Johan Malan’
Subject: RE: Slander
See my notes in BLUE (BOLD)
Slander is saying something that is not true? Right? No where do I say anything that is NOT TRUE unless I have been ill-informed. So please inform me correctly….
“Is this not slander?
–You are a professor in Anthropology are you not? You are not a professor in Theology? Right?
–- 2 people asked this question, Robbie said that his brother spoke to you years ago and he stated that you DO. Now if you do NOT believe in GAP THEOLOGY – then please state your case so that I can put it on the website?
— you refuse to take a stand for the gospel of Jesus Christ – you find common ground with people false teachers such as Calvinists.
–- This is taken directly from YOUR WRITINGS on Angus Buchan in your articles you state that Angus teaches biblical repentance, this is not true.
–- I have an email from Anton Bosch telling me that Tongues speaking did not stop and I even argued with him about it over email.
Why don’t you come to the website and tell us what is slander and what is NOT slander Prof Malan? People want to know the truth.”
———–
I am still waiting for Johan Malan to reply….
[delete]
Redeemed and Deborah, I am not a novice when it comes to these matters, I have done research upon research; my hubby & I had to call it quits when we discovered we were in a reformed church not too long ago-never realised that PTA is a Reformed stronghold, so I understand where they’re coming from and they don’t know any better; I work with the lot. We addressed this issue with the pastor and we left the church. I have read Dave Hunt’s book and many of his articles on this matter and others. I read many of Prof Malan’s articles, they are all brilliant. Do I agree with all of them 100%, I don’t think so for reasons of my own. Prof Malan and DAve Hunt move in theological circles, do you really expect them not to engage in any debates with those who are blind? Unbelievable!! Any clear thinking theologian/apologist will laugh at this-it is part of their calling as they are most equipped. It is disappointing to read this back & forth writings of yours to Prof Malan. No one is above rebuke and correction but you are way out of line accusing Prof publicly of being an undercover Calvinist. You should have kept your emails a private matter but you opened a can of worms. I don’t think you care because you have a following Deborah. Remember that you are responsible to proclaim the truth on your site and speak it in love to help the blind bearing in mind that you have readers globally who differ on many issues; often secondary issues that have no salvific significance. If they attack you, move on. I have read many Apologists’ sites who boldly contend for the faith yet humbly speak the truth and seeing how they are attacked by those who hold to false teachings, but their response (not their reactions) towards these pple amazes and humbles me, it’s often filled with sympathy towards those ones who are blinded and often approached & answered with caution avoiding to bring attention to themselves and with Godly maturity. When I read yours, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. How old are you Deborah? I don’t think you realise that you continue to expose yourself by your responses to comments. You clearly can’t take a rebuke it seems and you have to have the last say. May the HS bring truth and conviction for we are not beyond rebuke.
Jaco, I read your comment only now after I sent mine, you’re a Calvinist and I’m not but I can’t agree more on what you said. Deborah if you still can’t understand what we’re saying to you for the sake of other believers and your site then you need to withdraw and come before the Lord so that the HS can search your heart. If Jaco and I can come to this conclusion, then I’m sure many have, except your little following. There will be many in heaven – all from different churches I believe (and it’s logical) for this matter is not about church denomination but whether or not pple have accepted Jesus’ sin death on the cross and followed Him. Then there will be pple from those very same churches who will go to hell for rejecting Jesus Christ. Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Rev 2-3. Now will you please bury this ugliness once and for all and focus on JC and His truth as all humans are fallable (incl all great Apologists) and we don’t know it all. I too need to correct pple who hold to other views but I don’t go around airing my opinions everytime but as the HS leads. When someone differs from me, I just tell them the Bible says the following and if they don’t buy it, move on. The HS will convict them sometime or the other.
starlight
>> Prof Malan and DAve Hunt move in theological circles, do you really expect them not to engage in any debates with those who are blind? Unbelievable!!
Johan Malan is NOT DEBATING DOCTRINE WITH CALVINISTS – HE IS FINDING COMMON GROUND WITH THEM.
>> I don’t think you realise that you continue to expose yourself by your responses to comments.
Old enough to know that I follow Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ ONLY and no man will try ooooze his way into my life on the basis of COMMON GROUND.
>> You clearly can’t take a rebuke it seems and you have to have the last say. May the HS bring truth and conviction for we are not beyond rebuke.
I take hundreds if not thousands of rebukes, from people who follow men instead of Jesus Christ. You just don’t understand what it means to follow Jesus Christ and the TRUTH ONLY at ALL COSTS.
Please don’t comment again, until you have gone to pray and asked Jesus what it means to FOLLOW HIM ONLY.
And no, I did not have to keep the emails private – they are my Matthew 18 attempt to approach Johan Malan. I was not going to say anything as I prayed for him and gave him time (months) to see what he would do about the situation. But SOMEONE spilled the beans and said I lied and accused Johan Malan of befriending Calvinists. I needed to tell the truth, and show that I didn’t lie and accuse him, I asked him WHY HE WAS FRIENDS WITH EVIL-MINDED CALVINISTS. He is not preaching to them, he is not trying to change their minds AWAY from Calvinism, he is happy to be friends with them as he has found common ground with them and can’t see anything wrong with what they PREACH – as they lead people astray.
starlight
>> Jaco, I read your comment only now after I sent mine, you’re a Calvinist and I’m not but I can’t agree more on what you said.
Imagine that, a you (a supposed Christian) agreeing with an (unbeliever) who writes the most hate filled comment ever AGAINST a born again Christian.
I can see why you follow men instead of Jesus… there is no love in you.
From: Discerning the World
Sent: 17 January 2013 09:41 AM
To: ‘Johan Malan’
Subject: RE: Slander
Dear Prof Malan
Can you please answer the below questions… especially the Gap Theory questions, as 2 people have ask this and they would like to know if it’s true or not.
Debs
——————-
[Edited by DTW - If Prof Malan does not reply and tell us what he believes regarding Gap Theory DTW will automatically take it that he does believe it. I can't imagine why Prof Malan would not want to explain to us what he believes.]
Starlight, you are new to this forum and therefore have not been around long enough to judge Deborah’s words, actions and methods. I would exhort you to make an effort to know where she is coming from and why she takes the stand that she does.
It is not an easy task to do this work and you have not walked in her shoes.
The Church is in apostasy because of the tolerance shown to false teaching and following man over God’s truth.
You speak of her “little following”. Deborah does not have a “following”, but those she exposes do. I post here often because I believe that this is one of the very few places where truth is defended without regard to personalities in this day. The harm that false teaching causes is destructive to people’s spiritual lives and Deborah is simply following the admonition given by the Apostle Paul and others in regard to exposing false doctrine.
You are obviously not familiar with the history behind Deborah’s stance on Calvinism/Reformed theology and why she had to make the issue with Prof. Malan public. She is trying to speak truth to this man who is compromising God’s truth. He has a public ministry – she has a public ministry – she has gone to him privately until she had no choice but to give an explanation.
You have no idea what Deborah has gone through and the attacks that have been launched on her personally simply because she speaks the truth. You say you are not a novice – well Starlight, I think ALL of us are novices in some way and we never “arrive” in this life.
Thankfully the Lord opened your eyes and you came out of that church. Did it not disturb you of all the others who are just eating up that false teaching?
God hates a false gospel because it condemns them when He came to save them. Calvnism is darkness – we are not to have fellowship with darkness. There is NO common ground even when it appears so – that is the delusion that exists in the Church today and that is why it has so much traction.
Starlight, you may have much knowledge, but you have much to learn about the ministry of discernment. I hope you will take Deborah’s advice and spend some time in your prayer closet regarding this. You asked how old Deborah is – how is that relevant? There are some people who are 25 going on 70 in spiritual growth and there are people in their 70′s who are spiritual babies.
I hope you come to respect Deborah’s COURAGE and RESOLVE to serve the LORD and honor His TRUTH above all else. I know that I would find it very hard to weather through all the hits she takes.
Blessings to you -
Debs: I don’t know anyone in this argument really well…so I’m not judging anyone personally. Just the doctrine.
In my own experience, had I kept quiet and let “boys be boys”…or “let everyone figure it out for themselves” in the charismatic circles I was in, I would have had to answer to the Holy Spirit who brought it to my attention. What they did with my exposure of error caused a great chain reaction in which “your enemies will be those of your own household” rang true for me.
After my divorce, a dear friend took me into her home before settlement finances came through for me. And for that I will forever be grateful. She was the kindest person in the world and an old friend from the Pentecostal Church that we both attended when our kids were growing up.
Her discernment of how NA differed from Christianity was lacking, however, and she did not see the problem with books such as Marian Williamson’s “a course in miracles”.
She also did not see a problem with her Jewish husband telling me that… it was not acceptable that I could believe that he was going to hell if he did not believe in Jesus as the only way to God. (it was after a few years of our friendship post divorce, that he picked this fight with me over lunch in a restaurant. I did not start the discussion (and I was very kind in my firm refusal to budge) but he was determined that I would agree with him.) I told her and him clearly, that they were free to believe whatever they wished but as a Christian, I had to believe what the Bible says if my faith was to remain true. My friend, knowing that I was treading on dangerous ground, warned me, “Carolyn, you will no longer be welcome to visit in our home if you take that position”.
I said to her, “if you and I believe the same, that Christ alone is the way to God the Father, why does he not hassle you?” She replied, “I told him that I believed he would be in heaven. I don’t know how, but I believe he will be there.”
Alarmed, I called her attention to the fact that these are the doctrines that the martyrs died for. They are the foundation of Christianity. If she denied them, she was denying Christ.
Then one day, the Lord faced me with a passage of Scripture which I could not ignore. I had to make the choice between remaining friends with them and remaining true to Christianity. And there was a very short, heated upheaval and we separated.
That’s what we are called to, Starlight…it’s not always peaceful and pretty. Christ said, I didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword…the Sword of the Spirit, which divides truth from error.
There is no middle ground…if you decide to follow Christ, you can bet that sooner or later you will have to make a decision between associations. If God calls you to stand up to error, and once you “see” it, then you must separate from it so that there will be no unclear message given to others.
Is Calvinism a secondary issue? If it distorts the character of God and denies the factoring in of our own choice and responsibility to believe, I think not…
In visiting a former thread on eternal security that Deborah recommended, I found this comment that actually relates to this thread. Whenever I see anyone quoting A.W. Pink it is a HUGE red flag because he was a flagrant Calvinist although all of his writings do not necessarily reflect that.
But for Prof. Malan to quote a Calvinist on the topic of Eternal Security indicates an ignorance of the devious and distorted Calvinist “perseverance of the saints” doctrine or a soft spot for Calvnism,either of which disqualifies him as a credible teacher of the Word. One can only hope that he will wake up and smell the coffee and actually do an article on the errors of Calvinism instead of giving them a pass.
Burning Lamp says: 1 May, 2010 at 7:22 am
Carolyn, a BIG AMEN to your # 87. Well said and well illustrated. Light has no fellowship with darkness. You are right, your former friend was in fact denying Christ and the indication would be that she never knew Him because she rejected the terms of His plan of salvation, the bedrock of the faith.
You are right, the Christian life is not a bowl of cherries – we only have to read the Word and the testimony of the Apostles and prophets to know that there is a cost to standing for truth, but the reward for doing so is greater than we can even imagine.
Redeemed
Goodness, I forgot about that. And you are right… why would anyone who is NOT a Calvinist in their right mind quote A.W. Pink. The man was staunchly Calvinist.
It’s like, trying to convince someone you are not a Catholic but you keep quoting the Pope.
Redeemed. Thanks!
you said: “You are right, your former friend was in fact denying Christ and the indication would be that she never knew Him because she rejected the terms of His plan of salvation, the bedrock of the faith.”
“She rejected the terms”…yes…exactly right.
The thing is, I think, that many, not just Professor Malan, have not yet decided for themselves that Calvinism is a cult. It changes the gospel.
*The truth is that we are saved by Grace, not by Election.*
Yes, yes, I’ve heard all the complex arguments, and altering of Scripture to arrive at this strange teaching. As long as I was in the Calvinist camp, I was swayed. They are very biblically literate (with selective Scriptures), and very convincing, although twisted. Now that I have recognized the error for myself and stepped away from it completely, I can see clearly, the difference and I will not allow myself to be swayed again.
When I was in the Pentecostal movement, I never dreamed I would ever leave. But as I read the Word, there was just a growing dissatisfaction. It was God moving me out of their influence in stages. And now the greater the distance I put between them and me, the greater clarity I have.
The main fact is that Scripture is ALL we need. So many denominations and cults have begun with some new teachings, spiritual awakenings, men’s teachings (Calvin) or teachings that have been supplied by angels (WOF, Ellen G. White, Joseph Smith, Etc.)
*These teachings are direct attacks on the Word and they funnel down to their followers.*
My thoughts are for us all to remember that it is the Word of God and God himself that is under attack…and you just happen to be first in the line of fire.
It is my hope and prayer, that when the smoke clears from all the things that have been discussed here, that there will be some who will once and for all, see that the teachings of Calvin are not the same as the Word of God. They are different. And only those who remain faithful to read and obey the Word of Truth, will be led out of error and deception by those who “sound so legit”.
I’m not in this world to win a popularity contest. Most likely, even saying what I said above, I’ll gain a few more enemies. But…not to worry. I will be blessed if I am obedient to the Holy Spirit. Those on the side of Truth, will listen to Truth. Those who want to make everyone happy, smooth out the wrinkles and soft peddle the gospel, will hate those who see truth in black and white (the way it’s written in the Bible).
“Shades of grey” is not a new concept. Here’s a warning we should pay attention to:
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Carolyn # 102 A hearty AMEN!!
I was going to add that I don’t think we can give Prof. Malan a pass on this because he has a public ministry and people who trust him. He has a higher accountability to get it right. He has been alerted and refuses to receive it. He is choosing to continue in his sin of flirting with Calvinism. He is choosing to stay with the spirit of error.
You are absolutely correct in that someone who is swayed into believing the Calvinist lie will have difficulty with clarity until they step back and examine the scriptures for themselves. Sadly, most will not do that. As you have attested, Calvinists are quite adept at quoting and twisting Scripture and dazzling the sheep with their intellect.
Praise God you broke free.
Ya, so there was this man who was treated very badly by some folks – they chose to side with a criminal instead of him, and he said “Father forgive them, they don’t know what they do” even while they made theologically intemperate remarks and engaged in character asssassination mixed with actual assassination. But please, go ahead: cry out, and raise your voice in the street, you have been wronged! Don’t ever forget!
Andrew
Another Calvinist supporter by any chance?
I found this observation today…fact or fiction? I just thought it belonged under this thread:
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
Just as John Calvin “stole” Geneva to set up his personal kingdom with himself as “Pope,” modern Calvinists are stealing churches. Old Baptist churches in the United States are a prime target. A Calvinist will apply for an empty pastorship while keeping his belief in Calvinistic doctrine a secret. Upon being offered the position by unsuspecting church members he begins to bring in other undercover Calvinists who are promoted to ruling positions as deacons and elders. The undercover Calvinists quickly reach a majority in the ruling body of the church. The church appears to be prosperous and growing, because the undercover Calvinists recruit only other Calvinists as new members. The new members are all a part of the scheme. These wolves in sheep’s clothing make a power play after gaining a majority control. They force out the older non-Calvinist church members one at a time with rudeness, intimidation and insults. Slick scheme! The Calvinists have just stolen church property that could be worth $5 to $10 million or more. Calvinists rarely build a new church on their own. They may be proud of their success in stealing the church, but in reality they have only secured a ticket to the Lake of Fire.
Romans 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Carolyn
Goodness, that is smart (in a white collar crime kinda way). Knowing how Calvinists behave I would not be surprise.
I really cant believe how much…ALL…of you can fight over the doctrines of men. I have no silently read this website for a while and everyone is guilty of it.
It is just typical how Christians behave…and if that statement gets me dammed by you or one-day by God himself, then so be it
Hank wrote:
Hank, are you a troll or just someone who honestly misunderstands what is going on here?
1.No one here or no one on this earth has the right to damn you.
2.Not everyone who says they are a Christian is truly a Christian.
3.Do not use the discussions here as an excuse to shake your fist in the face of God Almighty. That would be a terrible mistake.
4.The only thing that will send you to hell is to refuse to confess you are a sinner and need a Savior and reject the gift of salvation that the Lord Jesus Christ freely offers you because He loves you and gave Himself for you.
5.The purpose of this site is to expose the works of darkness and at times this can get contentious. But be assured the author of this site and others who come here are simply standing for the truth because they love God and are concerned about people who may be led astray.
I am not a follower of Calvin, neither am I a follower of Wesley. There’s scriptural truth in the teachings of both, but the followers of both camps tend to harbour a platonic pride. Therefore I prefer to be a humble follower of Jesus, my Saviour.
Louis
Calvinism trashes the message of salvation, no one can be saved in Calvinism, Wesleyanism is a gospel of good works thereby trashing the message of salvation. I do no see any scriptural truth in either. I get what you are saying though.
Louis, the measure of the truth of any doctrine is how is one saved. Do you find any truth in Calvinism as to how one is saved? You seem to take a lackadasical attitude when it comes to truth.
Please answer this question. Thank you.
soe!! groot kopseer na al die goed gelees het hier.
Very disappointing with Johan Malan, though I have not his full side of this matter(his fault for not engaging here)
Deborah(DTW) have the 2 choices:1) expose sOme error
2)expose All error.
So Debs keep on screaming from the rooftop!!!!!!!!!
oh Dave Hunt is mentioned here a lot ,does anyone here know he passed away 5 April 2013
heber
I am screaming! They tried to shut me up, but fortunately I managed to get the article back up again.
Yes I shed a few tears for Dave Hunt (1926-2013)
———
To our Berean Call Family:
Friday, April 5, 2013, Dave Hunt drew his final breath and entered into the presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. His beloved wife Ruth was at his side.
Born in 1926, David Charles Haddon Hunt enjoyed the advantages of a godly upbringing and placed his trust in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and Lord in his early teens.
As a young man, he served in the military toward the end of World War II. Afterward, he attended UCLA and received a degree in mathematics. It was during that time that he met the love of his life, Ruth Klassen. In 1950, they were married, and since both loved the outdoors, they enjoyed a beautiful honeymoon hiking in the High Sierras—perfect for two young people madly in love and with very little money to their name. Marriage was soon followed by the birth of two sons and two daughters. Ruth was a busy mother and also a gifted writer herself. She had a tremendous interest in and knowledge of history, a gift that would help Dave further down the road. Dave’s own career path led him into a position as a CPA/management consultant and later as the manager of several corporations.
Along with church-related activities, Dave initiated and became involved in numerous campus ministries and meetings in their home, with a special outreach to Jewish young people and foreign students. Many of these have stayed in touch with Dave and Ruth through the years, fondly recalling their times spent in Bible studies at the Hunts’ house.
Dave and Ruth also traveled abroad, spending time in various locations throughout Europe, meeting with believers there and ministering in many ways while raising their own family. Dave also brought Bibles and other materials into the Soviet Union during a time when it was very difficult to do so. Throughout his later years, he and Ruth traveled extensively as he was invited to speak in churches and fellowships, large and small, all over the world. Often they stayed in people’s homes, dining with them, learning their customs, and sharing God’s Word and God’s love.
The desire of Dave’s heart was ultimately to be involved in fulltime ministry, especially since he saw firsthand everywhere he went the breaking down of the true church as the world began to work its way into her midst. He began to write in 1973, warning believers about the incursion into Western culture and into the church itself of Eastern religion, psychological and selfist philosophies, ecumenism, and other unbiblical teachings.
The ministry of The Berean Call was founded by Dave in 1992. It grew out of a previous organization, of which Dave was also a founding member since 1986. With T.A. McMahon working alongside him at The Berean Call, Dave was able to share his love for and defense of Christ in the subsequent newsletters, books, videos, and speaking engagements that resulted from this ministry. Dave and T.A. wrote three books together, including the best-known The Seduction of Christianity , which was groundbreaking in its boldness, exposing false teachings in the church and daring to identify the names of the ones behind the deception.
By the early 2000s, Dave’s love for Christ and his desire to defend the name of the Lord had grown even stronger, and his concern over Islamic politics and religion are reflected in many of his articles, lectures, books, and interviews.
Then Richard Dawkins and the “new atheists” came onto the scene with a vengeance, seeking to destroy the very concept of God in the minds of everyone. Dave began to write and teach and speak more passionately than ever about the absolute truth that is in the Word of God and our need to immerse ourselves in it daily in order to prevent being taken up in the evolutionist delusion that is sweeping the world.
One of Dave’s favorite activities was to see whom God would seat next to him on airplanes as he traveled and spoke. He often said that he “could prove the existence of God” just by these providential occurrences. While writing about Islam, he would end up seated next to a Muslim who didn’t really understand what Islam was about but was eager to hear the difference between the Bible and the Qur’an. When Dave was writing about creation vs. evolution, the Lord would bring him, as a seat companion, an atheistic scientist who thought he had all the answers and was very surprised that there was another verifiable explanation to this universe.
Dave’s bold yet loving approach to any situation allowed him entrance into these conversations where many others would have been shut out. His love for Jesus, for Israel, and for people in general was obvious to all. His enthusiasm for the truth, along with his anger over the sin and wickedness that he knew was robbing people of what God wanted for them, flamed his desire to share the Lord with anyone with whom he had contact.
At least 4 million copies of his books have been sold, many of them translated into more than 50 languages. They include: The Cult Explosion; The God Makers (with Ed Decker); The Seduction of Christianity (with T.A. McMahon); Global Peace and the Rise of Antichrist; Peace, Prosperity, and the Coming Holocaust; The New Spirituality (with T.A. McMahon); Whatever Happened to Heaven?; Occult Invasion; A Woman Rides the Beast; A Cup of Trembling; In Defense of the Faith; An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith ; To Russia with Love (with Hans Kristian); What Love Is This?; Countdown to the Second Coming; Seeking and Finding God; Honest Doubts; Judgment Day!: Islam, Israel, and the Nations; Yoga and the Body of Christ; and his final book, Cosmos, Creator, and Human Destiny.
He also wrote two novels, The Mind Invaders (formerly The Archon Conspiracy ) and Sanctuary of the Chosen, along with a children’s book called The Money Tree , illustrated by his daughter Karen.
This is by no means a complete listing of all of Dave’s works. One of his videos, Israel, Islam & Armageddon, has become a tremendous tool for churches and for anyone interested in helping to spread the truth about events prior to and since the attack on the World Trade Center. His video A Woman Rides the Beast is a favorite among those who are witnessing to Catholics, a group for whom Dave had a deep love and sorrow, desiring to see them come to the knowledge of the truth.
Dave Hunt’s own drive to find and then deliver the truth is evident in everything he did. His impeccable research and recognized scholarship were based on in-depth studies of original documents and publications, interviews with key experts from around the world, and extensive travel—including to South America, Australia, Europe, India, and throughout the Middle East.
Dave has left us a legacy of inestimable value. We are blessed to be able to see and hear and read what he has taught about the evidence for God in a breathtaking number of materials. From explaining about the history of Christianity, to exposing the deception that has crept into the church, to teaching about the prophecies that are being fulfilled even today, this humble, brilliant man will go on teaching us for a very long time. We look forward to the day when we will see him again.
http://www.thebereancall.org/
heber
I tried to get Prof Malan to come and dialog with us here but he wont. And there were a few things I asked him via email one being, “does he believe in the gap theory”, and I never received a reply. In fact that was the last time I heard from him again. Oh well… silence says a lot… too… ya know…
I just went to the web site of Dave Hunt http://www.thebereancall.org/. He had a stroke some time back but now he has seen our King Jesus and is healed. His book about the error of Calvinsm, What Love is This is awesome.
Sharon wrote:
Yes, I so respected our brother Dave and his courage in presenting the truth about Calvinism and doing so in love. He was viciously attacked by Calvinists for it and yet he never responded in kind. He was a gracious man but at the same time never shrank from what God called him to do.
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