The Dispensations of God – Do You Have the Correct Perspective?
Prof. Johan Malan, Mossel Bay, South Africa (December 2010)
There is a progressive revelation of God and His plan for the ages in human history on earth since Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden until the end of time when humanity will reach its final destination. Seven clear dispensations can be distinguished in the counsel of God, and they are characterised by increasing knowledge of good and evil. As the dispensations follow one another, greater clarity is obtained on the kingdom of Christ which will be revealed in all its glory and splendour at His second coming. At the same time, more detail is given on the opposing kingdom of darkness which will be revealed in all its evil depravity at the time of the coming of the Antichrist.
Although there are certain timeless principles which remain the same in all seven dispensations, e.g. God’s righteousness and His abhorrence of sin, there are also new principles which are introduced to every new dispensation. These differences are often so important that a custom which was highly regarded in one dispensation, e.g. circumcision in the Old Testament, is described as an act of betrayal of Christ during the subsequent dispensation. Paul said to the legalistic Galatians: “I say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing” (Gal. 5:2).
The seven dispensations in God’s plan of salvation for humanity are the following:
1. The dispensation of innocence
The very first dispensation in which Adam and Eve found themselves was that of innocence in Eden as they had no knowledge of good and evil. God had forbidden them to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and warned that they would surely die should they eat of its fruit (Gen. 2:17). With great cunning Satan deceived Adam and Eve to rebel against God by disobeying Him (Gen. 3:1-5). They foolishly heeded Satan’s advice and yielded to his evil influence, thus becoming sinners. Not only did they become aware of the distinction between good and evil but they also became victims of evil. Spiritual death immediately set in, while they also physically became mortal beings. The original sin of our first parents gave rise to a fallen, sinful nature which was inherited by all their descendants (Rom. 5:12). This situation can only be changed by a spiritual rebirth. The dispensation of innocence ended with the Fall, leading to the eviction of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden.
2. The dispensation of the conscience
For a long time after the Fall humanity had no laws and could only distinguish between good and evil by way of the voice of conscience. In spite of this innate knowledge Cain preferred to sin (Gen. 4:7-8). Various other people pursued righteousness in accordance with their inner convictions and whatever personal revelations God gave them. Some of them, like Abel, Enoch, and Noah, became preachers of righteousness. At times during this dispensation evil was so intense and pervasive that God’s anger was kindled against humankind. During the Flood all but eight people were destroyed.
3. The dispensation of human government after the Flood
After the Flood God concluded a covenant with Noah (Gen. 9:1-9) and subsequently held the leaders of family groups responsible for their decisions and the spiritual wellbeing of their followers. According to Romans 13:1 these authorities, or human governments, were instituted by God. Genesis 10 contains a list of Noah’s descendants through Shem, Ham and Japheth, who all became heads of extended families which later developed into distinct peoples or nations. When these leaders became involved with idolatry, the whole group followed suit. Abraham was also a patriarch with a large following, but he believed in the Lord and taught his followers to do the same. The consolidation of human governments gave rise to the establishment of the Babylonian world empire which constituted an extreme form of rebellion against the kingdom of God. It formed the basis for apostate government and world empires that followed, but also offered the possibility for the establishment of God-fearing governments.
4. The dispensation of the law
With the introduction of the dispensation of the law a much clearer distinction was made between good and evil. Not only in the Ten Commandments, but through a great number of other laws and decrees, God defined righteousness and sin. In this way Israel became better acquainted with God’s kingdom and the kingdom of Satan. In spite of all the serious warnings they repeatedly worshipped the gods of the heathen nations around them because their inner motivation to serve the Lord was weak. They hardened their hearts and refused to repent to the Lord and to obey His commandments (Jer. 5:3; 23:14; 44:5).
5. The dispensation of grace (the church dispensation)
With the outpouring of the Holy Spirit the church age was ushered in. After the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus the Holy Spirit was poured out to regenerate people and to guide them into all truth. Because He convicts them of sin and righteousness, they have clearer discernment between good and evil. The New Testament reveals to us deeper knowledge of God. The devil and his works are also more extensively revealed (Col. 2:15). We know much more of Satan, his demons and how they go about to deceive people. Although we have enlightened eyes of the mind (Eph. 1:18) to understand much more about spiritual light and darkness than was the case during preceding dispensations, we still only know in part (1 Cor. 13:9). However, since the divine agape love is the guiding principle of our lives the Holy Spirit enables us to be rooted and grounded in love, to comprehend with all the saints what the width, length and depth of Christ’s love is, so we may be filled with all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:16-19). The Holy Spirit imparts the heavenly life of Christ to us. We should decrease so that Christ can increase in our lives (John 3:30).
6. Dispensation of the Antichrist’s reign
When the one who withholds – i.e. the true church indwelt by the Holy Spirit – has been taken out of the way during the rapture, the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-12). He will be globally accepted as spiritual and political leader (Rev. 13:3-8). Strong delusion will prevail on earth and the masses will blindly follow and worship the Antichrist. Evil will develop to its fullest extent and there will be no limits to blasphemous and sinful conduct (Rev. 12:12; 13:4). Satan will be worshipped as the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). In contradiction to this situation, the true church that will have been removed by way of the rapture will receive glorified resurrection bodies and will fully know all goodness. They will see Jesus Christ face to face and will never again be separated from Him (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
7. The dispensation of the kingdom
During the Millennium the true believers will rule with Christ in His kingdom (Rev. 5:10; 20:6). They will have glorified, immortal bodies, fullness of joy and perfect knowledge of God. There will be no more pain, suffering, death or tears. During that time the spiritually restored Israel will proclaim the praises of the Lord everywhere and the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea (Isa. 11:9). Satan will be bound (Rev. 20:2-3) and the righteousness of the Lord will reign supreme everywhere on earth. Harmony and good order will also prevail in nature. This seventh dispensation will eventually be followed by the eternal order of the new heavens and the new earth.
Law and grace
We are presently in the church dispensation, which is the dispensation of grace. This dispensation was made possible by the atoning death of Jesus on the cross, and started on the day when the Holy Spirit was poured out to convict people of their sin, to regenerate them, fill them and guide them into all truth. Before the crucifixion of Christ the law still applied and people were commanded to observe it. But subsequent to these events people had to come to Christ for salvation and were instructed to walk in the Spirit if they wanted to prevail against sin and the flesh. The Lord Jesus fulfilled all the sacrifices and feasts of the Old Testament, thereby introducing a new dispensation.
It is imperative that we make a clear and complete transition to the dispensation of grace and avoid trying to mix the Old Testament law with the grace of Christ as that would jeopardise our salvation. Paul says, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” We are saved only by faith based upon Christ’s completed work of grace on the cross. The Holy Spirit, not the law, convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement. In the New Testament, sin is identified as the works of the sinful flesh, and includes everything that falls short of the righteousness of Christ. Our command is not to be conformed to the law but to the holiness of God as revealed to us by Jesus Christ.
Should we in any way try to supplement our salvation by Old Testament law observance, regardless of whether it is circumcision, Sabbath-keeping or any other law, we will thereby minimise the grace of Christ and even deny the basis of our salvation. Many of the Galatians followed this course and Paul warned against the serious consequences of their actions: “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4). This warning refers to people who were already saved by grace, but subsequently nullified their salvation by their legalism.
We too, after our salvation, are not subjected to the law for the upholding of moral standards, but to the principles of God’s grace: “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace” (Rom. 6:14). The law renders people slaves of sin as it can only convict them of sin but cannot save them from their sins. But when the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, He leads us to the cross where we can obtain full salvation.
When we are born again we are endued with the new nature of Christ which is based upon the principles of God’s love and grace. When we completely surrender our lives to the Lord, the Holy Spirit fills our life and richly pours out the love of God in our hearts (Rom. 5:5). When we live in accordance with the demands of God’s love which has graciously been given to us, we have fulfilled the law: “For the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not covet, and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, you shall love your neighbour as yourself” (Rom. 13:9).
We are indeed on a higher level than the law since the Holy Spirit convicts us of sins which are not even mentioned in the law. He also promotes Christian virtues to which the law makes no reference, e.g. evangelisation, prayer, the filling of the Holy Spirit, as well as spiritual warfare by putting on the whole armour of God. The love of Christ which was given to us by grace, has its own nature and principles which teach and motivate us to live on a much higher level than was expected from people under the law: “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11-13).
The love of Christ is the basic command or principle of life in the New Testament. Jesus said to His disciples: “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34). From this commandment flow various other New Testament commands or instructions, including the Great Command to evangelise the entire world. The commandments of Christ should not be equated with the Old Testament law.
Why would people reduce this sublime life which is lived in the love of the Lord Jesus and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to the shadowy practices of the law? Among the Galatians there were believers who again started observing Old Testament Sabbaths and sabbatical years. Paul said to them: “Now after you have known God… how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have laboured for you in vain” (Gal. 4:9-11).
How can we revert to the shadows of the law if we have its complete fulfilment in the New Testament? Nevertheless, in the early church there were Judaisers who went around and proclaimed that salvation in the Name of Jesus was not enough – believers also had to observe the Law of Moses to obtain salvation. Shortly after Paul and Barnabas were commissioned in Acts 13 to evangelise the Gentiles, Judaisers endeavoured to yoke these converts together under the law. This matter also became a serious dispute among the disciples and, according to Acts 15, gave rise to the first meeting of the early church’s synod in Jerusalem. The decision taken by this council was that the Gentiles were not under the law as the Lord purifies their hearts by faith through His grace (Acts 15:8-11). The Gentiles were never under the law – neither before nor after their salvation.
Only the people of Israel were under the law as, for many centuries they brought sacrifices, all of which were fulfilled by the slaying of Christ as the Lamb of God. The Messiah did for them what the law could not accomplish, i.e. to deliver them from their sin (cf. Matt. 1:21). The law kept them under guard and served as a tutor to bring them to Christ. After their salvation they no longer need a tutor since they are now guided by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 3:23-25).
It is of the utmost importance that we should stand fast in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, that we should strictly walk according to the principles of His divine love, and that we should refrain from putting ourselves in bondage to the law. We must not, in the church dispensation, try to live under the shadow of the law, thereby undermining the principles of Christ’s saving grace by trying to supplement them by laws.
We grieve the Holy Spirit when we infringe the high moral standards of our life in Christ. The solution to this problem is not to revert to the law, but to more intimately identify with Christ: “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil its lusts” (Rom. 13:14). We should walk by the Spirit in the footsteps of Christ until He is fully formed in us – then He will also be to us the end of the law towards righteousness. When my heart has been filled with His love, I do not need outward laws to govern my relationship with God and with other people. He who truly loves has fulfilled the law.
Dominionism
Not only is the dispensation of grace undermined and rendered powerless by integrating it with the dispensation of the law, but there are also those who give a false character to it by integrating it with the future dispensation of God’s kingdom on earth. If the future dispensation of the kingdom – that is the millennial reign of Christ – is not clearly distinguished from the present church dispensation, it can give rise to serious theological confusion and also promote wrong expectations. When these two dispensations are merged they lead to a form of dominionism (kingdom-now theology) in which signs and wonders are pursued, as well as transformation meetings and manmade revivals aimed at taking control of the world. Many Christian leaders want to live as kings now and be able to wield great powers.
It is completely impossible to establish millennium-like conditions on earth right now. Only the Lord Jesus can save a remnant of Israel and the nations, have the devil bound in a pit, restore the throne of David, and ensure that peace and harmony prevail on earth. If we are prepared to suffer now and fulfil our ministry in the midst of great opposition, we will be worthy to rule with Christ in His kingdom which will soon be revealed (Rom. 8:17). We are not kings now who are ruling, but soldiers of the cross who are strangers and sojourners in a world which lies in the sway of the evil one.
However, it is not only deceived people who are intent on establishing a big and mighty kingdom on earth before the second coming of Christ – the devil also has similar plans. He knows very well that Christ will return to the earth as King of kings, destroy His enemies and found a worldwide kingdom of righteousness. At the present moment Satan uses all his power in various efforts to forestall this kingdom by offering an alternative kingdom to humanity. According to Revelation 6, the Antichrist will appear on the scene as a false prince of peace, conclude a covenant with all the false religions, systematically destroy all his enemies, and rule over a global kingdom of Satan.
According to the Bible these evil plans will indeed materialise, leading to a short but very distinct dispensation of the Antichrist’s rule on earth which will run its course between the church dispensation and the dawning of Christ’s kingdom. The true church is withholding the revelation of the Antichrist. Paul says, “He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming” (2 Thess. 2:7-8). After the rapture there will be a seven year-long rule of the Antichrist on earth, which will last until the second coming of Christ when He will destroy this evil kingdom and establish His own kingdom of righteousness.
The plans and expectations of the kingdom-now theologians are dispensationally completely out of place. Through their actions they do not only erode the principles of the dispensation of grace but they are actually preparing the way for the alternate kingdom of the Antichrist. The ecumenical ties which they forge, the strong emphasis on signs and wonders, their interest in extra-Biblical revelations by false prophets, as well as denying the uniqueness and deity of the Lord Jesus, will also be used as building-blocks for the kingdom of the Antichrist. He will be such a crafty deceiver that very few people will be able to see through his obscured stratagem. John says that the whole world will follow him in amazement and also worship him as prince of peace and messiah (Rev. 13:3-4).
When the Antichrist establishes his kingdom on earth he will also make concerted efforts to discredit the saving grace of Christ by means of the law and also by adherence to kingdom theology. He will encourage orthodox Jews to live according to the law, to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and to again put their trust in animal sacrifices. In doing so they will explicitly reject the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross, thereby opening up the way towards accepting another (false) messiah. The Antichrist will also use the third temple to declare himself in the Holy of holies to be God and king (2 Thess. 2:4). Israel as well as the nations will be deceived to conclude a covenant with him.
The Antichrist will build a mighty kingdom on earth, based upon false peace and unity. He will only institute a military dictatorship in the middle of the tribulation period when revolt will occur against his kingdom, leading to an attempt against his life. At that time he will declare himself to be God. Israel and many of the Gentiles will only then realise that he is a false messiah, and consequently reject him. These actions will give rise to the large-scale persecution of Jews and Christians during a great tribulation as has never been on earth (Matt. 24:21).
Christ will return after the 3½ years of great tribulation, destroy the antichristian powers, bind the devil and institute His thousand-year reign of peace. That will be the seventh and last dispensation in God’s plan of salvation for humanity. At the end of that dispensation the final judgement will occur and a new heaven and new earth will be created. Then, the narrow way and the broad way will each reach its final destination – the one in the new Jerusalem and the other one in the lake of fire.
We are still in the dispensation of grace and can, by faith in Christ, be transferred from the broad way of sin to the narrow way of God’s righteousness. Did you come over from the darkness of sin to His marvelous light? This dispensation is racing to its end and we have little time left to settle our case with God. Soon, the Lord will come for His bridal congregation, after which the Antichrist will extend his power over a deceived world. During that time it will be much more difficult to become a Christian and to remain standing against the powers of darkness. “Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near” (Isa. 55:6).
Debs, thank you for posting this much needed information. Dispensational theology is not popular amongst most believers today.
The proper understanding of the dispensations guards against confusion of law and grace. Yes, principles are timeless, but one can see that God deals with His creation differently at different times. Soon the dispensation of grace will end.
Dr. H.A. Ironside and others have been called Hyper-Dispensationalists. Rubbish!
One little twist to this that I just discovered. There is a group who call themselves dispensationalists but are actually critical of H.A. Ironside and others who share his views. This group – bullingerists – go so far as to say that Matthew 28 is not the Great Commission and only the Pauline epistles hold the truth.
This is a super article by Prof. Johan.
So-called “dispensationalism” is nothing more than a cunningly devised fable by the likes of men like John Darby and C.I. Scofield.
The “rapture”/”change” will occur at the LAST trumpet:
1 Cor 15:52 (ironically used by pre-tribbers to make their case…nothing could be further than the truth):
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
When is the last trumpet? It’s sounded by the seventh (last) angel in Revelation 11:15:
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
Now go look at Revelation chapter 11 and the chapters that immediately precede it. That’s great tribulation folks. The church WILL go through the great tribulation, but will NOT go through the WRATH of God (the seven vials).
Please don’t believe me. Check it all out. Show me scripture from the King James bible that contradicts this rapture/change/translation happening “at the last trump,” and I’ll be glad to listen.
There is SIMPLICITY in Christ …. God bless the Word of God to us.
FTW, obviously you have fallen for the false teaching of Marvin Rosenthal – Prewrath.
You shut off anyone who doesn’t use the KJV. That leads me to suspect that you are KJV only. Sorry, but I use the NKJV.
You are the one who is complicating a SIMPLE issue. And you are blind if you cannot see that God deals with man differently at different times of history. You sir should tread lightly – calling God’s plan a “cunningly devised fable”. There are MANY more solid Bible teachers who rightly divide the Word and believe in the dispensations.
In a separate post I shall give you verses to consider regarding this subject – and from the KJV Bible.
Are you one of the group that believes Israel is no longer significant in God’s plan? Just wondering………..
WILL SAINTS BE KEPT FROM THE COMING HOUR OF TEMPTATION?
Let us compare the testimony given in Matthew’s gospel with the records of both Mark and Luke.
In Mark 13:14-27 we have a passage almost parallel to the one in Matthew, a careful reading of which only confirms what we have already seen, namely, that the great tribulation is still in the future, and that it ends with the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory.
In Luke 21 it is evident that considerable time must elapse between the overthrow of Jerusalem under Titus and this coming of the Son of man, Jerusalem’s destruction is predicted in verses 20-24:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Notice particularly that following the downfall of the holy city and the desolation of Palestine, Jerusalem’s treading down or subjection to the nations is to last until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. This expression, “the times of the Gentiles,” is not used anywhere else in scripture, though a similar term is found in Ezekiel 30:3: “For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day: it shall be the time of the heathen.”
The heathen are the Gentiles. Ezekiel is referring there to the triumph of Nebuchadnezzar over Israel and the powers to which they turn for help. Egypt and Ethiopia.
The times of the Gentiles began with Nebuchadnezzar. They go on until the return of the Son of man. Who will come as the Stone that smites the feet of the image of gentile supremacy, breaking it to pieces and scattering the dust to the four winds of the earth, then becoming a great mountain and filling the whole world. The actual circumstances immediately preceding this coming are given in Luke 21:25-27:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars: and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring: Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The signs referred to here are the supernatural events that we have already seen will take place during the great tribulation, while the conditions set forth in verse 26 show us the effects of these things in the hearts of humankind. This period of tribulation culminates in the shaking of the powers of heaven. Then the Son of man will be seen descending in a cloud to take His kingdom and reign in righteousness.
A careful consideration of many scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament prophets, would how us that when the Lord thus returns, He will smite apostate Israel and the rebellious Gentile world with judgment. They will be destroyed at His presence. On the other hand, a remnant of Israel will not only be spared from judgment, but will welcome Him as their long-looked-for King and Messiah. A great multitude of Gentiles will be saved from the wrath that will fall on the worshippers of the beast and will form the nucleus of our Lord’s kingdom on this earth for a thousand years. This is the predicted program for the coming of the Son of man.
The term “the coming of the Son of man” never refers to that particular aspect of the second advent for which the church is taught to look. When our Lord addressed Israel when He was on this earth He used this expression over and over again. In John 14 our Lord announced an aspect of His return that is NOT depicted in the synoptics. He spoke of coming to receive His own to be with Himself. This is the first clear word we have in the New Testament regarding what is commonly called the rapture. This particular aspect is always distinguished from the coming of the Son of man.
With the above facts in mind, let us now turn to Revelation 3:10- 11. Writing to the angel of the church in Philadelphia, our Lord said:
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
These letters to the seven churches set forth “the things which are,” that is, the conditions prevailing in the professing church of God on earth throughout the present dispensation. Until our Lord returns, churches will be found in the moral and spiritual condition of those depicted here. These seven letters set forth the characteristic features of seven distinct periods of church history from apostolic days until the end of her testimony in this scene. The warnings and exhortations and promises in these seven letters are for all the church of God throughout the dispensation. Addressing those who are shown to be genuine, who have kept Christ’s word and not denied His name, which is the least that could be said of any true believer; we have this definite promise that such will be kept from the coming hour of trial, which is to fall on the entire habitable earth. The term “habitable earth” is a translation of the Greek word oikoumene, which was used in apostolic days to distinguish that part of the world which was in subjection to the Roman empire and which is the proper sphere of prophecy, from all the rest of the world whose inhabitants were called barbarians. It is on this Roman earth that the vials of divine wrath will be poured out in all their intensity in the days of the great tribulation. Those who will be particularly exposed to these judgments are distinguished as “dwellers on the earth.” This expression is used again and again in Revelation. A careful consideration of every passage in which it is found will make it plain that it refers not simply to people who live on this globe, but to those who have despised the heavenly calling and whose hopes and affections are all centered on this earth. In other words, they are the same as those spoken of in Philippians 3, who have spurned the heavenly calling and who “mind earthly things.”
This promise expressly declares that real believers of this dispensation, that is, the true church, will be kept from this coming hour of trial. They have not been kept from the frequent trials and tribulations to which Christians throughout the past centuries have been exposed, but they will be kept from this particular hour.
It is evident that the Spirit of God in so speaking was using a term which Christians generally were expected to understand. If any ask, “What is the hour of temptation or trial, coming on the entire earth, from which we shall be kept?” the hour of temptation is that hour of trial so frequently spoken of elsewhere in scripture. We have seen something of what the Old Testament and also the four gospels have to say concerning it. Let us consider references to the hour of temptation in the epistles.
First Thessalonians is the earliest of Paul’s letters that the Spirit of God preserved for the edification of the church. In this letter the second coming of Christ was presented as the imminent hope of the saints. No one can read the latter part of chapter 4 thoughtfully without seeing that the Spirit of God intended the church to live in the daily expectation of our Lord’s return. No one can possibly live in the daily expectation of the coming of the Son of man as set forth in the synoptic gospels unless he knows that he is in the very closing days of the great tribulation. Consequently, the hope of the Lord’s return set forth in Thessalonians must of necessity be a different thing to the expectation of His coming to set up His kingdom, and careful consideration of the passage referred to only serves to make this clearer. It is the Lord’s coming for His saints whereas the other is His coming with them.
In chapter 1 in this epistle, Paul spoke of the conversion of the Thessalonians, and the testimony they were giving to the world outside, and he said:
9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:9-10
The point is that it is not simply that we are looking for our Lord as the One Who has delivered us from eternal wrath, but we look for him as the one who is coming to snatch us away from the wrath that is soon to all on earth. This agrees with the promise in Revelation 3:10. And it is in this way that the church will be kept from that hour of trial. Before the judgments fall the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, the dead in Christ will be raised, and the living saints changed, and we shall be snatched away, caught up to be with Him before the indignation is poured out on this guilty scene.
Turn now to 2 Thessalonians 2. As we read it carefully, let us bear in mind what has already been before us. In order to see the viewpoint both of the apostle himself and of those to whom he was writing at that particular time, it will be well to consider certain facts that may be clearly deduced from a careful study of the entire letter. It is evident that the coming of the Lord had a large place in the hearts and minds of these particular saints. Some among them had become unbalanced on the subject, and were teaching that they were already entering into the time of great tribulation. They believed that the day of the Lord was practically upon them. They were endeavoring to substantiate this teaching by the use of a forged letter purporting to come from the apostle Paul, and the advocates of this system declared that the Spirit had revealed these things to them. Therefore the saints were becoming unsettled, losing the blessedness of the hope of the Lord’s return for His own. They feared they were already entering the great tribulation, and that the next event would be the coming of the Son of man.
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess. 2:1-2
The New American Standard, Holman Christian Standard, and the Amplified, all considered valid translations read “the day of the Lord.”
The best manuscript authority authenticates this. The day of Christ is not the same thing as the day of the Lord. The day of Christ refers to the time when believers will stand in their glorified bodies at Christ’s judgment seat. But the day of the Lord is the time when His judgments will be poured out on the earth, and He will descend and take the kingdom. The apostle reminded these believers of what he had already written in his previous epistle. They were not to look for the day of the Lord but for the return of our Saviour to deliver them from the coming wrath. So he pleaded with them in view of these facts, that “by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,” we are not to be troubled or distressed, no matter what assertions others might make in regard to the day of trouble being already on us.
The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him must take place before that time of distress can begin. This is exactly what we insist on today, we who do not believe that the church will go through the great tribulation. Our daily expectation is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. This must precede the judgments. The day of the Lord cannot begin until after it takes place.
Suppose that a great city is in rebellion against its rightful sovereign, but there are in that city certain loyalists who grieve over the defection of the rest, and are faithful to their king. Word comes that the offended monarch and his great army are on the way to the city to subdue or destroy it. Naturally the loyal citizens are anxious and troubled. They do not want to be exposed to the fire of the royal army and they manage to get word out to the king declaring their loyalty and asking his consideration. Word comes back that his standard will be planted on a certain mountain outside the city before the bombardment begins. When that standard is seen on the mountain, all the loyalists are instructed to leave the city under protection of the king, who will make special arrangements to guard them from destruction,. Soon the van of the army appears. More and more troops arrive and surround the doomed city. Great guns are being placed at advantageous points on the outlying hills and all preparations for the shelling of the city are being made. Rumours of all sorts are being circulated. The bombing is to begin tonight, or tomorrow, or the next day. The loyalists are becoming nervous and anxious, but in some way a message reaches them. “I beseech you my the coming of the king, the lifting up of the standard on the mountain, and your gathering together unto him, be not troubled because of what you see in the way of preparation.” The messenger assures them that not one shell will fall on the city until they are safely gathered unto him outside the wall. And so their hearts are quieted.
One day the standard is uplifted. A regiment of cavalry comes careering over the plain, and at the same moment the loyalists, acting by preconcerted arrangement, leave the city and are immediately protected by the royal horsemen. Soon they gather about the king, prostrating themselves at his feet and attesting their faithfulness. Then the attack on the city begins.
Like all human illustrations, I realize this one does not fully picture the conditions that are to prevail at the Lord’s return, but it may at least help to make clear what the apostle means in these opening verses, and it will prepare us to understand what follows: “Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away [the apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” The “day” is the day of trial and distress that we have been occupied with, but it will not come until the apostasy is fully manifest. There cannot be complete apostasy so long as the church of God is in this world. No matter how much there may be in the way of unfaithfulness to Christ and His truth, our Lord has declared, “Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” As long as the church is in the world, it is being led in His triumph. There may be individual apostates, but there cannot be complete apostasy.
But when the church has been caught up to be with Christ, then the apostasy in all its fullness will arrive. Out of that condition of things the son of perdition will arise, “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” This is the sinister character whose awful features are dimly seen in both Testaments as one of the dominant actors in the last days. While not for one moment condoning the abomination of the papacy, it is not logically possible to link this personage with that system as a whole, nor with any individual pope of the past or present. The popes at their worst have all professed to act as vicars of Christ. They have not exalted themselves above all that is called God or that is worshipped. But the man of sin will be an absolutely self-deified atheist. He will recognize no God but himself. His rise to power is evidently linked with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, spoken of by Daniel and referred to by our Lord as the true starting point of the great tribulation.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 we are told of one who hinders this full manifestation of evil until the set time appointed of God.
And now ye know what withholdeth [hinders] that he might be revealed in His [own] time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now letteth [hinders] will let [hinder] until He be taken out of the way. And then shall that “Wicked” [one] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
There has been a great deal of controversy about this passage. Some claim that the hinderer is Satan who has his place in the heavens until after the rapture of the church, and then he shall be taken out of the way. Others insist that this hinderer is orderly government, and as long as orderly government prevails these things cannot take place. Some of the early fathers thought the hinderer was the Roman Empire, and that Paul dared not put on paper just what was in his mind lest he expose Christians to the charge of plotting the downfall of the existing private information which he had given to the Thessalonians when he was with them that had to do with this subject. But let us remember that this letter, like every other epistle in the New Testament, was written not for the local believers only to whom it was addressed but for all Christians during the entire dispensation. Therefore verse 6 is addressed to believers everywhere, who ought to be capable of understanding it, if they are at all familiar with their Bibles. “Ye know what withholdeth that he [that is, the man of sin] might be revealed in his [own] time.” Every Christian should be able to answer as he reads these words of scripture, “Yes I do know who it is that hindereth the full manifestation of iniquity. There is only one answer possible and that is, of course, The Holy Spirit.”
What Christian is there who would think of any other hindering power in such a connection? In both Testaments this is the very province and work of the Spirit of God. He causeth the wrath of man to praise him and the remainder of wrath he doth restrain (Psalm 76:10). “When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him “(Isaiah 59:19). He is working in the church at the present time, convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Moreover, His presence in the church continues as long as that church is here, for our Lord promises, “When He is come He shall abide with you forever.” How then will he ever be taken out of the war? This will only occur by the fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians 4, with the return of the Lord and our being caught up to meet him in the air. This is the tremendous event that will clear the way for that time of trouble from which the church of God is to be kept.
There is one other passage that deals with the rapture. First Corinthians 15:50-58 says:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave,where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
There are two aspects of the coming kingdom: heavenly and earthly. Both together are called the kingdom of heaven. The saints of this and past ages will not live here on the earth during the kingdom age,but their home city will be the New Jerusalem above. This is called the Kingdom of the Father. “Then shall the righteous shine forth.” declared our Lord, “in the kingdom of your Father.” The earthly saints will live here in this world in natural bodies. This is spoken of as the kingdom of the Son of man. The apostle was referring to the heavenly kingdom when He said, “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” All who have part in the heavenly side of the kingdom will have glorified bodies in that day. The manner in which this will be brought about is given us in the verses that follow. “We shall not all sleep [that is, we shall not all die], but we shall be changed [or transformed].” This will take place in one moment in the briefest possible period of time at the last trump. The sound of that trumpet will end the present dispensation, and the dead will be raised incorruptible and the living changed. This is in exact accord with what we have already seen in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Some have endeavored to link the last trump of verse 52 with the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation. But it should be remembered that the book of Revelation was not in existence when the apostle wrote his letters, nor did it come into existence until many years afterward. Therefore, he could not possibly have referred to anything in that book. Furthermore, it is perfectly clear that this last trump is the same as the trump of God in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is altogether different from the trumpet of an angel. The term seems to be a military one, and refers to a signal used in the Roman army to set the legions in motion. At the first trump tents were struck, at the second trump they fell into line, at the last trump they marched away. We are waiting for the last trump when we will not march nor fly, but will be caught up to be with the Lord in the air, and so we shall be kept from the hour of temptation which is coming on all the earth.
From writings of H.A. Ironside with some revision.
FollowsTheWay
I have actually answered ALL these types of questions in the comments sections here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/06/the-rapture-an-article-to-knock-your-socks-off/ and http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/22/the-rapture-an-article-to-blow-your-hair-back/ but for you I went to look for my one comment and copied and pasted it here to answer to help you with this 1 Cor 15:52 (last trump) problem you are experiencing. ;)
1) There are different trumpets for different things that are going to take place.
2) This last trump in 1 COR 15:52 is not meaning the ‘last trumpet’ that is blown once and for all. This trumpet sounds when the body of Christ (those who are truly and utterly born again) are caught up in the tinkle of an eye to meet Jesus in the air.
3) There are 2 other trumpets that sound AFTER the Rapture in Zechariah 9 and Isaiah 27
Did you know that the trumpet that closes the Feast of Trumpets is called the Last Trump? Bet you didn’t FTW, that is why you mis-read scripture. Never the less…check below for the other 2 LAST trumpets blown i
Zec 9:9 – First Advent
Zec 9:10 – Second Advent
Zec 9:14 – The trumpet God blows
Zec 9:15 – God defends
Zec 9:16 – God saves
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Isa 27:13 – Gathering of Isreal (last trump blows)
Depending on what is happening, there is a ‘last trump’ to signify it’s end. In other words there are more than 1 ‘last trump’, in fact there are a few.
I just wanted to share a website that I came across that actually proves that God exists through date patterns. The date patterns actually correlate to scriptures all throughout the Bible. It’s absolutely amazing to see how historical events and the date they occurred can be matched to scriptures that speak of specific detail of the occurrence.
The website is http://www.provesgod.org!
I have actually used this website as a tool to show people that there is indeed a spiritual record that can be proven!
Cheryl
Oh my goodness, I am struggling to even count to 5 at the moment. This looks like hard work. Can someone else look at this website for me and let me know if this guy is just taking a chance.
This sent to me via email….
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Will the Rapture Interfere With Your Plans?
by Pastor Ricky Kurth
In his comments on Isaiah 57, Dr. Harry Ironside shares this story:
Years ago, before the First World War, Professor Stroeter, a well-known prophetic teacher in Germany, used to go through the country giving lectures, and using charts to unfold the dispensations. His lectures attracted the attention of the German Emperor, Kaiser Wilhelm, who in spite of his many idiosyncrasies, was quite a Bible student, and used to preach in the palace chapel on many occasions.
The Kaiser invited Professor Stroeter to his palace to give him an idea of what he was lecturing upon. The professor was taken into the library and spread a roll of his charts out on the table. The Kaiser followed him as he pointed out various things in the dispensations until the Second Coming of the Lord. After a lengthy conversation the Kaiser said, “Do I understand you aright? Do you mean to say that Jesus Christ is coming back literally, and that when He returns all the kingdoms of the world are going to be destroyed and He will set up His kingdom on the ruins of them all?”
And Professor Stroeter said, “Exactly, your Majesty….”
“Oh, no,” said the Kaiser, “I can’t have that! Why that would interfere with all my plans!”
We don’t know if Professor Stroeter understood the dispensations well enough to have expressed to the Kaiser that the coming of our Lord to rapture His church must come before the wrath of the Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ (I Thes. 1:10; 5:9). Regardless, what a frank admission from a man who professed to be a student and teacher of the Word of God!
How about you, dear reader? If you are not saved, you will be left behind when the Body of Christ is “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air (I Thes. 4:17). While we believers will “ever be with the Lord” in heaven, the seven years of Great Tribulation that will follow on earth will surely interfere with all that you have planned. Why not trust the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior by believing that His death, burial and resurrection paid for all of your sins. Then you too can look forward to being a part of all that the Lord has planned for His saints.
But we close by asking Christians if the Rapture will interfere with your plans, or be the triumph of His grace in your life? When John Wesley was asked what he would do the following day if he knew the Lord were coming, he replied that he would rise at his usual hour, spend time in his regularly scheduled morning devotions, and arrive promptly at his first speaking engagement of the day. In other words, he wouldn’t have to change a thing in his life to prepare for the coming of the Lord. May this be true of us too!
One thing that completely blows me away is the fact that at the end of the Millennium, the world will rebel against Jesus Christ once again.
I think dispensationists are on the right track, but I am not sure that any fleshly human understands everything just yet.
By the way, the last trumpet is a reference to Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Very obviously final the return of Israel will coincide with the rapture of the Church.
Something that bothers me about dispensationism that it hints that some were saved by works at one time. Hebrews tells us that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. Very clearly then anyone who was ever saved, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and Daniel, for example, were all saved by grace. No one was ever saved by works…ever!
Very clearly there were many saved in the Old Testament.
Getting back to my introduction. With Jesus Christ actually ruling physically from Jerusalem, the majority of earth’s inhabitants will remain unsaved. Revelation 20:7-9
There is something very special about the age in which we live. I think that God’s plan is that the majority of the saved will likely come out of the Tribulation. There is nothing like trouble to make us focus on God. This is why the millennial reign will have so few truly saved. They will live in a perfect world and will not really understand the effects of sin.
Dan
>> Something that bothers me about dispensationism that it hints that some were saved by works at one time. Hebrews tells us that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin. Very clearly then anyone who was ever saved, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and Daniel, for example, were all saved by grace. No one was ever saved by works…ever
How can it bother you that there was once an ‘old covenant’ and now a ‘new covenant’. Hebrews speaks for the New covenant. But in the old covenant that is the way things worked.
And yes we will never understand what’s going to happen come the end of the Millennium. Quite frankly I don’t even fully understand what’s going to happen during the Tribulation – good thing is I wont be here.
Yeah Dan, in the Great Trib except for a few and those who have the seal of God and will be unharmed, anyone who confesses Christ will be martyred. That of course would include CHRISTIANS. That would leave only a remnant to be raptured. That would leave the only point in the event of the Rapture would be to raise the dead. But that is not what the Bible says. I’m with Debs – My Bridegroom has booked me on the first flight and supper is waiting.
And as far as the OT saints, they were saved by FAITH. In that dispensation that was the criteria because Christ was not yet sacrificed. Why people are so opposed to dispensational theology is beyond me.
And as far as those who have abandoned our Blessed Hope, let’s get real – they can’t help but live in fear. Yes of course, there are Christians in various places at various times that have come under persecution, but NOT the ENTIRE Body of Christ since the Church has become worldwide. They like to take the verses from Matthew that do not apply to the Church to justify their position.
It all comes down to rightly dividing the Word. Seems there is not a lot of that going on these days………..
Oh and Dan, I had to warn people NOT to go to your site because you make it your agenda to justify the use of fermented wine. Your reasoning is faulty and dangerous as it could make someone stumble. If you want to further this discussion, let me know.
Deborah, this came into my mailbox this morning. I think it explains beautifully the question at hand.
“FROM FAITH TO FAITH”
by Russell S. Miller
“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:17).
What does Paul mean by the phrase, “from faith to faith”, in this passage? His words in Galatians 3:23-25 may give us food for thought and substance to our faith:
“BUT BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, SHUT UP UNTO THE FAITH WHICH SHOULD AFTERWARDS BE REVEALED.
“Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
“BUT AFTER THAT FAITH IS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER” (Gal.3:23-25).
Hence, the Apostle’s use of the phrase, “on whom the ends of the ages are arrived”, and the Greek word, telos, in I Corinthians 10:11, is pertinent here, for Paul’s gospel is the unveiling of God’s “eternal purpose” in Christ. In his epistles alone we learn that “the time of reformation” had come as “works” gave place to the Age of Grace (Heb.9:10-14). This, then, and the passage in Galatians, gives us additional light and under-standing upon our text, “from faith to faith”, in Romans 1:17. When God does something, it affects the whole Universe as is evidenced in the Epistles of Saint Paul concerning the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary’s cross.
“FOR HE HATH MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US, [CHRIST] WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM” (IICor.5:21).
Therefore in Paul’s gospel, both Jews and Gentiles can “now” live “without the law”:
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
“WHOM GOD HATH SET FORTH TO BE A PROPITIATION THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, TO DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, THROUGH THE FORBEARANCE OF GOD:
“TO DECLARE, I SAY, AT THIS TIME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT HE MIGHT BE JUST, AND THE JUSTIFIER OF HIM THAT BELIEVETH IN JESUS” (Rom.3:24-26).
Thus in Hebrews 9:26 Paul’s words about our Saviour, and His finished work of redemption, are most significant:
“For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
In the book of Romans we see that God’s righteous standards are maintained, “from faith to faith”. Whereas God once required obedience to the Law of Moses for acceptance with Him, now, in this Age of Grace, you must accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior today, for His righteousness is “witnessed” by the Law and the prophets:
“EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO ALL AND UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE…” (Rom.3: 21,22).
How important Paul’s words are then, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” (Acts 16:31), and do it today.
Hi Deborah,
Maybe I wasn’t clear. Paul tells us that Abraham was saved by faith in Romans 4.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness
I agree that there was an Old Covenant and there is now a New Covenant. I just don’t think it means that anyone was ever saved by works. Abraham was a liar (Genesis 20:2). If he was saved, (and he was) it must be by the grace of God, through faith.
Don’t forget that Paul is using Abraham as an example for us. Paul is also the one who said that if you break one part of the Law you are guilty of all. How could Abraham pay for his sin of lying by doing a good work? The wages of sin is death. You can’t get out of the death penalty by doing something you should have done anyway. Not now, not ever.
The saints during the millennium will be saved by grace and yet will offer sacrifices. Those sacrifices cannot pay for sin just as the Old Testament sacrifices could not pay for sin. In both cases they point to the one true sacrifice that did pay for sin. The Cross of Christ.
The partakers of the Old Covenant did not have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As such they will forever remain paupers in Heaven. The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a privilege reserved for the Church Age saints only. Tribulation and millennium believers will also share this same status, though they will be truly saved by grace through faith.
Don’t get me wrong, the OT saints are truly saved and blessed of God, but God Himself says that they have a different status in Heaven:
Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
I am not saying that I understand everything that is going on here, but it is clear that Church age saints have a different status in God’s eyes than OT saints. And yet, this does not mean that the OT saints were saved by works, for God never changes and He is the one who would be offended by boasting if anyone were ever saved by works.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Don’t forget that “any man” means any human being. No one will be able to boast in Heaven. This means that salvation has always been by grace through faith. If someone told you that anyone was ever saved by keeping the Law (works) they were mistaken. Paul has just told us that Abraham was saved by grace through faith, and if Abraham was then so was every other OT saint!
God bless,
Dan Knezacek
I came to this site by accident, but found your topic on dispensationism interesting. I myself hold to an Amillennial understanding of the Second Advent of Christ. Two initial questions I have, one, was Moses saved under the dispensation of law? Second, was not Christ’s crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection sufficient enough for the sins of the whole world, if the OT sacrifices will be reinstated during the so called 1000 year reign of Christ? These are questions I’ve had for some time and look forward to your response.
Blessings
Deb,
My name is Matt. I have been reading your blog. I have found it very useful in gathering information to help me ‘discern the world.’
If something is ‘bothering’ you about dispensationalism then please do some more investigation.
By the grace of God my eyes have been opened through the Holy Spirit.
I have prayed that I may forsake everything for the sake of knowing Christ Jesus.
Please be open to the idea that dispensationalism may be the largest ‘christian cult’ in the world. It was a ‘novel’ idea. In order for this ‘system’ to stand one must change the scriptures to mean something that they do not.
You have used David Cloud’s material on here. KJV only is a lie, but that does not mean that what he has written about new evangelicalism is not true. I am using this example just to point out that while we may know that someone is incorrect in something they believe it does not mean that everything they report is necessarily false.
There were many brothers in Christ who strongly opposed these men whopopularized ‘dispensationalism’.
Sorry I hit submit comment by mistake before I finished writing my post:
Here are some links that you may find useful in your search of the truth:
http://www.dispensationalismrefuted.blogspot.com/2006/05/heresy-of-dispensationalism.html
http://www.sermonlinks.com/Sermons/Dispensationalism/DP_1.htm
http://www.markdankof.com/dispensationalism.htm
http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Diehards.html
You and I have both been fooled by false teachers in the past. We must put on the full armor of God.
The plymouth bretheren movement infected many independent, separtist, fundamental bible believing chuchs in america with dispensational myths popularized at the niagara conferences.
On example of the bad fruit is the IFCA in america. Miles Stanford (who is also erroneous with his ‘pauline dispensationalism’) recorded many of the controversies in his letters. Keep in mind that these men all bought into the dipensational myths. This does not discredit the fact that Mr. Stanford was able to articulate many of the earlier heresies of and hypocrisy John Macarthur:
http://www.withchrist.org/mjs/aberr.htm
http://www.withchrist.org/mjs/hayford.htm
It is my prayer that we may seek Christ while he can be found. Let us not buy into a ‘strong delusion’.
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
In Christ,
Matt
Dan you wrote…
I am not saying that I understand everything that is going on here, but it is clear that Church age saints have a different status in God’s eyes than OT saints.
Dan…with respect,how and where do you interpret this in this context…it certainly is not clear because it never was supposed to be understood.I really believe that it is completely and utterly impossible to understand heavenly terms with earthly terminology…the human mind and intellect has not the capacity.
In heaven there is only perfection…”status” as we know it has no value there and in God’s eyes of grace there is no respecter of persons in this CONTEXT.
Matt
That’s great. So what do you want me to accept? Let’s put it this way, what do you believe now?
I’ve spent 2 years studying pre/post/amill so I know the ins and outs of all the different views. However I looked at those links provided and it’s all the same stuff over and over again. What I did find interesting was the classification between Dispensational Premillennialism and classic Historic Premillennialism I ALWAYS understood that God had a plan for the ‘church’ from the very beginning and that is was NOT a “parenthesis” of OH NOW WHAT, the Jews dismiss Jesus, so now what, “…….” oh I’ll give their promise to the church.
OT people believed in God by FAITH, the Lamb they slaughtered (symbolic: Jesus Christ), Blood of the lamb split washed away their sins. They just did not have the indwelling of the holy spirit in them. But they were saved, God fearing people.
Confessional Lutheran
>>> 1) was Moses saved under the dispensation of law?
Of course yes. Jesus Christ was the LAMB who’s blood was split in the OT.
2) Second, was not Christ’s crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection sufficient enough for the sins of the whole world if the OT sacrifices will be reinstated during the so called 1000 year reign of Christ?
Who says OT sacrifices will be reinstated during the Millennial reign with Christ? I’ve never heard of this before.
Matt
On of those links speaks about…
Please understand that Dispensational Premillennialism and classic Historic Premillennialism are two very different systems of eschatology: [see my NOTES in bold]
THE BIBLE AND THE FUTURE by Dr. Wick Broomall
Older premillennialism taught that the church was in the forevision of the Old Testament prophecy;
Dispensationalism teaches that the church is hardly, if at all, in the Old Testament prophets. [NOTE, that's just silly, I agree with the first statement]
Older premillennialism taught that the great burden of Old Testament prophecy was the coming of Christ to die (at the First Advent) and the kingdom age (at the Second Advent).
Dispensationalism says that the great burden of Old Testament prophecy is the kingdom of the Jews. [NOTE: Never ever heard of that before, I agree with the above statement]
Older premillennialism taught that the First Advent was the specific time for Christ to die for man’s sin;
Dispensationalism teaches that the kingdom (earthly) should have been set up at the First Advent for that was the predicted time of its coming. [NOTE: WHAT THE? This sounds like New Apostolic / Kingdom Now rubbish - I agree with the statement above and always have.)
Older premillennialism taught that the present age of grace was designed by God and predicted in the Old Testament;
Dispensationalism holds that the present age was unforeseen in the Old Testament and thus is a "great parenthesis" introduced because the Jews rejected the kingdom. [NOTE: Unforeseen? Is that a joke? Of course the Church and age of Grace was FORESEEN by God and predicted in the OT]
Older premillennialism taught that one may divide time in any way desirable so long as one allows for a millennium after the Second Advent; [Great, I have no problem with that]
Dispensationalism maintains that the only allowable way to divide time is in seven dispensations. The present age is the sixth such dispensation; the last one will be the millennial age after the Second Advent. It is from this division of time that Dispensationalism gets its name. [Yeah, so what's the problem?]
Older premillennialism taught that the Second Advent was to be one event; [NOTE, It is common knowledge that the RAPTURE was known about by early church fathers....]
Dispensationalism holds that the Second Advent will be in two sections – “the Rapture” and “the Revelation.” Between these two events they put the (to them) unfulfilled seventieth week (seven years) of Daniel 9:23-27, which they call “the Great Tribulation.” [NOTE: The Rapture is a completely SEPARATE event and can't be classed with or compared to the Second Advent (Coming). Yes there will be a tribulation]
Older premillennialism taught that certain signs must precede the Second Advent; [Note: Yes it's called the Tribulation and all things happening in between]
Dispensationalism teaches that no sign precedes the “rapture-stage” of the Second Advent, which may occur “at any moment.” However, there are signs that precede the “revelation-stage” of the Second Advent. The “Rapture” could occur “at any moment,” but the “Revelation” must take place after the seven years of the Great Tribulation. The first stage is undated and unannounced; the second stage is dated and announced.
Older premillennialism had two resurrections-the righteous before the Millennium; the unrighteous after the Millennium.
Dispensationalism has introduced a third resurrection – “tribulation-saints” at the “revelation-stage” of the Second Advent.
Older premillennialism usually held what is called the “historical symbolic” view of the book of Revelation. This view makes Revelation a picture in symbolic form of the main events in the present age.
Dispensationalism holds generally to the “futurist” view of the book of Revelation, which view makes almost the whole book (especially chapters 4 to 19) a literal description of events to take place during “the Great Tribulation” or Daniel’s seventieth week, which Dispensationalism considers as yet unfulfilled.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
I along with you also believe Moses was saved. Your answer has led me to another question. Was Moses and others saved because the rite was performed (ex opre operato)? Or was Moses and others saved by believing the promise of the one who was to come, who would be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that the OT sacraments pointed to? I asked this, because in one of your previous posts, you stated that the OT testament saints didn’t have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. How can one have faith without the Holy Spirit? What about David in Psalm 51:11 when he states: “cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me”. Or Exodus 31:1-3, “The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son Hur, of the of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship,””. These are but just a couple verses among many that showed believers were filled with the Holy Spirit in the OT times.
In my library, I have a Scofield Study Bible and E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible, along with my own experience, having spent two years in a church that taught dispensationism. All three of those sources stated concerning the millennial reign of Christ in Ezekiel chapters 40-48, the OT sacrifices and offerings will re-instated. For instance, Scofield writes in his notes on Ezekiel 43:19, “Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back to the cross, as the offerings under the old covenant were anticipatory, looking forward to the cross”. Why would these sacrifices and offerings have to be done in the so called 1000 year reign of Christ?
On a lighter note, besides our obvious theological differences, which are many, you have a lot of useful information on your website and I plan on returning time from time and do consider you a sister in Christ. I also look forward to our future converstaions on dealing with the text of Holy Scripture.
Matt, sorry bro’ but you have bought a defective bill of goods. I hope you read Debs excellent response to your outlandish comments about dispensationalism.
I would ask you one question? Do you believe in the Blessed Hope? If not, you are missing out on one of the greatest blessings available to believers today in these last of the last days. If not, what exactly do you consider your hope?
Confessional Lutheran
Hang on, let me explain what I mean. Is there not a difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit come to abide in you whereby you continuously are filled with the Holy Spirit? I’ve read many verses were people in the OT had the Holy Spirit CAME OVER THEM and fill them. Why did Jesus tell the disciples He was sending them the Holy Spirit who would come to abide in them if the Holy Spirit was there already? I believe the Holy Spirit came over people and filled them in the OT, but after Jesus’ crucifixion the Holy Spirit would come to abide in the person. The NT teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. What we can discern from this is that the Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. We also see that the indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David) and that if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14). Finally, the Spirit “coming upon” an individual doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (e.g., Saul, Samson, and many of the judges). So while in the New Testament the Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Spirit indwelled certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task, irrespective of their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person.
Needless to say people in the OT were saved by believing the promise of the one who was to come, who would be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that the OT sacraments pointed to.
Ok, I don’t read study bibles, I have a bible and I am lead by the Holy Spirit. I have read Ezekiel 40-48 and this is my answer…
Hmmm, is it possible that we have no right to question God on what HE PLANS to do in HIS KINGDOM? I think not. These sacrifices won’t replace Jesus Christ, it will be memorial only, i.e., IN MEMORY OF. God WILL build HIS TEMPLE again for HIS GLORY.
The primary idea of animal sacrifices returning during the millennial kingdom is that Jesus has come and offered a PERFECT sacrifice for sin, and there is therefore no need to sacrifice animals for sin. However, it must be remembered that animal sacrifice NEVER removed the sin that spiritually separated a person from the Lord. Read: Hebrews 10:1-4
It is INCORRECT to think that animal sacrifices took away sins in the OT, and it is incorrect to think they will do so in the millennial kingdom. Animal sacrifices served as an lesson for the sinner, that sin WAS AND IS a horrible offense against God, and that the result of sin is death. Romans 3:20 says, “Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”
So the purpose of animal sacrifice during the coming millennial kingdom is a reminder as I have already said, just as the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the death of Christ to the Church today, animal sacrifices will be a reminder during the millennial kingdom. To those born during the millennial kingdom, animal sacrifices will again be an lesson. During that future time, righteousness and holiness will prevail, but those with earthly bodies will still have a sin nature, and there will be a need to teach about how offensive sin is to a holy and righteous God. Animal sacrifices will serve that purpose, Hebrews 10:3 “but in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year”
[EDITED by DTW: Follows the Way - I am a pretty patient person, but this ongoing attack against Jesus' rapture of the church is now seriously getting to me. READ THIS VERSE.
The disciple John could not wait for Jesus' return. (unlike the church today).
John 21:22-24,
22Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"
23Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"
24This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
It is CLEAR the early church viewed Christ’s return as IMMINENT, that He could return at any MOMENT. Otherwise, the rumor would not have persisted that Jesus would return within John’s lifetime. ]
Thanks for the response. I am going to look at your comments and questions (and then God willing I will post a more detailed response). Please be patient with me. It will take some time. I am not sure exactly what to believe about the end times, but I am very skeptical about a pre-trib rapture. I believe the Word of God is pure. I want to be extremely careful not to add to it or take away from it. One thing I have noticed is there is a tendency to create a false unity to combat the ills of society or the church. Today many groups join hands ecumenically to fight against abortion and homosexuality (manhattan declaration). I suspect (with supporting evidence) that in north america in the 1800s many independent, fundamental, separtist, bible believing chuches joined together to fight against theological liberalism and modernism. They joined at the niagara conferences which were centered around new prophetic ideas and systems. I have been studying the history of chuches that were influenced by these conferences and the teachings of Darby and Schofield. Most of these churches were rooted firmly in dispensationalism- separating from the ‘apostasy’ of those who do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. This caused my discernment radar to go off. History can help us, but what really counts is if the teachings measure up to the Word of God.
Revelation 22:17
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
I have experienced false signs and wonders, word-faith, NAR, and calvinism. The delusions can be very strong. Thank Jesus that we may stand firm in Him.
2 Cor 10:3-6
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
I have not spent as much time as you have studying the end times. I am beginning to take a close look at all the views, theories, and systems used to interpret Bible prophecy. After following various myths and teachings of men I have a better understanding about the need for caution and biblical discernment. Pray that I may stay close to my Bible and be filled with the Holy Spirit. I asked God to protect us both, and that we may walk in the light of Christ Jesus.
1 John 1:5-10
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2 Timothy 2:14-19
14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus,
Matt
Matt, God has gifted teachers to help us rightly divide the Word. If the Word is NOT rightly divided, it results in confusion and wrong conclusions.
Debs reminds us of one of the best “arguments” for a pre-trib rapture is the imminency factor. That is clearly established in scripture and rules out the other theories. The Rapture will be a complete surprise – there will be those who have grown weary of waiting and dream up different scenarios to match their unbelief and impatience. But these are not biblical.
Matt, I hope that you establish in your mind the Blessed Hope and that this brings you peace. Yes, there are Christians experiencing torture and their own times of tribulation, but not the entire Church.
The confusion comes in making the distinction between the Church and Israel. That is why the study of the dispensations is helpful.
If you are not jaded as to seeking the teachings of men, I would highly recommend the writings of H.A. Ironside, one of the greatest Bible expositors who lived – long since deceased. But his works are timely for our day. He explains it so well and documents it from the Word of God.
Anytime a movement such as you mentioned turns ecumenical and sound doctrine is compromised, we know God is not in it. Don’t let the errors of men keep you from the truth.
May the Lord reveal His truth to you in such a way that every doubt has been removed from your mind.
dear deborah, i agreed with u on some things but differ with you on the law as you state that Jesus is basically the law, u contradict yourself when u say that u r not supposed to keep the sabbath and yet later on say that by virture u r born again u keep the law. Secondly u fail to distinguish between the law of God and the law of moses because there are 2 laws, one eternal and one “added” because of sin which foreshadowed Christ.
02. secondly Jesus is not our sabbath, he is not the day. Ironically he encourages the young ruler to “keep the commandments” if they want to have “eternal life” , u have to be honest with urself, that is what Jesus said. He also says “if you love me keep my commandments”, which ones? the 10 commandments.
03. “Paul said to them: “Now after you have known God… how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have laboured for you in vain” (Gal. 4:9-11).” Firstly Galatians were non jews so to start with how did they end up going back to the old testament, he was refering to their old customs. Notice he doesnt mention the law, the prophets etc in the text.
04. “Only the people of Israel were under the law as, for many centuries they brought sacrifices, all of which were fulfilled by the slaying of Christ as the Lamb of God. The Messiah did for them what the law could not accomplish, i.e. to deliver them from their sin (cf. Matt. 1:21). The law kept them under guard and served as a tutor to bring them to Christ. After their salvation they no longer need a tutor since they are now guided by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 3:23-25)” – this is talking about the ceremonial laws which foreshadowed the work of Christ not the 10 commandments e.g Passover day, day of unleavened bread etc. U might be aware (or unaware) that the Passover they killed a spotless lamb, true to His word Jesus was crucified on the passover day as well, why, because it foreshadowed Him. So u shud make a distinction between the Royal law of God and the ceremonial laws.
05. “Paul says, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” We are saved only by faith based upon Christ’s completed work of grace on the cross. The Holy Spirit, not the law, convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement. In the New Testament, sin is identified as the works of the sinful flesh, and includes everything that falls short of the righteousness of Christ. Our command is not to be conformed to the law but to the holiness of God as revealed to us by Jesus Christ.
Should we in any way try to supplement our salvation by Old Testament law observance, regardless of whether it is circumcision, Sabbath-keeping or any other law, we will thereby minimise the grace of Christ and even deny the basis of our salvation. Many of the Galatians followed this course and Paul warned against the serious consequences of their actions: “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4).” – again u cant distinguish which law is being talked here, Christ is the end of the ceremonial law, why becuase when he came he was supposed to put an end to the ceremonial laws, washings etc but the jews rejected him, hence continued in keeping the laws that pointed to Christ. Even in 2011 jews still slaughter lambs but fail to realise that the end of those laws is Christ.
06. “When the one who withholds – i.e. the true church indwelt by the Holy Spirit – has been taken out of the way during the rapture, the Antichrist will be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-12). He will be globally accepted as spiritual and political leader (Rev. 13:3-8). Strong delusion will prevail on earth and the masses will blindly follow and worship the Antichrist. Evil will develop to its fullest extent and there will be no limits to blasphemous and sinful conduct (Rev. 12:12; 13:4). Satan will be worshipped as the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). In contradiction to this situation, the true church that will have been removed by way of the rapture will receive glorified resurrection bodies and will fully know all goodness. They will see Jesus Christ face to face and will never again be separated from Him (1 Thess. 4:16-17)” – it is very clear you havent studied the series of events, firstly there is no rapture (disappearing of the church etc) nor is there any instruction by Jesus that he would rapture His church before the anti-christ, Actually he says that hthe church shall be in the midst of the tribulation but shall be looked after by God, it doesnt say they will go to heaven before it happens. Please show me one clear scripture which says christians go to heaven before the “rapture”. In fact the rapture doctrine contradicts the bible as it states that people disappear to heaven yet Christ says he will come and all people will see him, the good will be happy to see him, the bad will be greatly afraid to the extent of asking stones to pile on top of them out of fear, this is what paul says will then have them transformed. Peter sheds light on this event and says the evil ones will then be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So those are 2 events at the same time, the transformation of the good, and the slaying of the bad.
in closing have u ever found out the true mark of the people who will make it in the end?? i doubt if you have because it clearly identifies them as commandment keepers, specifically the 10 commandments.
Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Truth is God’s laws are greatly dispised, hated and people always try to give unscripturally supported arguements, “no we r no longer under the law, its legalistic etc” yet God says in the New Covenant He will write HIS LAWS IN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS, and keep them. So people who post here should check their arguements, if you say something that clearly goes against what God has said, chances are you are following that ” Has God said u will die, you surely will NOT DIE, but you shall be like GOD….”
fidel
1) what has this got to do with the topic at hand? nothing.
2) are your a seventh day adventist? Indeed you are… then you should read this article:
3) Explanation of the Sabbath here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/11/17/warning-sda-evangelistic-drive-amazing-discoveries-2010-mosaic-theatre-10-nov-4-dec/