By GV Swart – 22 May 2010
The conference was held at Kerk Sonder Mure in Centurion, which was kindly provided to the organisers free of charge. In itself I believe a charitable gesture and certainly not a cheap one. The venue is state of the art modern church buildings / auditorium with all the expected bells and whistles. Sound systems, lighting, stages, projection systems, CCTV in various areas, large auditorium seating +/-2000, other smaller conference rooms, kitchen areas, gardens, parking lots, guards on duty, foyer with book stalls, etc.
First impressions on arrival were formed by a large GDOP (Global Day of Prayer 2010) banner prominently positioned on the corner outside the building. organisers, participating speakers, presenters and audience members who were gathering within the building, however, presented quite a different picture. Wonderful how God works to enable His Truth to be promoted via all means. The venue certainly had no relevance to the message which issued from it; simply a set of walls enclosing a group of God’s people for a few hours.
Prof William Lane Craig, Pastor Ray Ciervo and Mike Willenborg, three Americans from what constituted the main body of the Faith and Reason team 2010, did presentations. Details of each presentation are far too extensive to mention here. Suffice to say that their impeccable preparations, evident depth of knowledge of the subject and most strikingly, their motivation by means of true faith made for an event which I will certainly not easily forget. Once again it glaringly exposes the dire need for quality impartation of the Word in our country, and the severe lack of guidance with which we currently struggle. Another fact which comes to mind is that these speakers needed no media assistance (TV, music, slideshows, side acts) to bolster their presentations.
If I may, here are a few points made, which have stuck in my memory:
Past Ray Ciervo in his presentation on The Importance of Right Thinking Theologically, Doctrinally and Biblically:
He stated that the most important of all aspects for reproof (referring to 2 Tim 3:16,17) is having a complete and constantly refilling understanding of being able to recognise the differences between Essential Doctrine, Non-essential Doctrine and False Doctrine. One cannot know which is which unless one has a full understanding of Scriptural essentials. One must not study False Doctrine to recognise the falsities, but only study the Truth. Only then will the false become evident.
To me that all seemed pretty obvious, but having it amplified in the way that Ray did, leads one to re-examine the importance thereof and re-evaluate one’s own position in relation to the study of the Truth. We could be running on dangerously empty. We might be reading the fuel guage’s E not as Empty, but Enough, and the F not as Full, but as Finished :) Sorry, I had to add that :)
He added that when dealing with other’s non-conformity to Biblical Truth, first and foremost one has to adopt a loving attitude before being Scripturally correctional. The reverse thereof is pointless and simply will not work. As Christians we have to accept that the world view exists, but not conform to it. Again obvious, but good to hear that the simplicity of these thoughts are foremost in the mind of such a prominent, respected and effective preacher.
Prof Craig dealt with the atheist viewpoint of evil and suffering not being synonymous with God and that these things cannot co-exist:
Atheists hold that the extent of suffering in the world appears to be inconsistent with a loving God. Atheists therefore argue that because God is assumed to be all powerful and loving, it follows that He would prefer a world devoid of suffering.
Prof Craig pointed to the omission in the atheistic argument, of considering the free will given to man, which brings about suffering and actually proves His loving nature. The Prof gave some interesting examples. Given the events on D-Day toward the end of WW2, God surely decided to bring about greater happiness for the greatest number of people by allowing the suffering that took place on the beaches of Normandy. It would be impossible for us to measure the amount of suffering needed to bring about the happiness in the scope of time.
Another example was that of Mao Tse-Tung murdering 20 000 000 Chinese. Yes, that is twenty million. By allowing this, what we might regard as mass suffering, He brought about the greatest Christian revival in all of history. Today there are well over 100 000 000 Chinese Christians and their numbers are growing faster than anywhere else, ever. Where as, in contrast, in the Western world where there is far less suffering, the opposite is true. There is a falling away.
He also mentioned that the opposite also takes place regularly, when that which is regarded as advantageous or good at the time, could bring about immense suffering long thereafter in history. He also pointed out that God’s purpose with us is not primarily our happiness, but our knowledge of Him. God therefore uses suffering to draw people into His Kingdom.
The Apostle Paul who had many afflictions, moral and physical, reminds us in 2 Corinthians 4:17 of the comparative outcome, were suffering and evil not available. He also mentioned that Jesus undertook incomprehensible suffering to bear the cross of the whole world.
He stated that it stands to reason that evil and suffering actually PROVES the existence of God. Prof Craig ended that particular presentation with a poignant question to the Atheist:
If God is the only answer then to suffering, what then would be the answer to evil?
Pastor Ray Ciervo then presented a detailed reasoning for the need for Apologetics in a five part discussion.
Points he made, in a nutshell: a) we are in a war, b) the nature of our enemy, c) the kind of war, d) our weapons, e) how to win. I made notes, but this will surely be available in recordings of the session. This is a must see.
Prof Craig followed with an enthralling talk on why truth cannot be limited to things which can be scientifically proven. He stated that there exists other types of truth which are presupposed and cannot be proven, but are universally accepted. These would include ethical truth, aesthetic (beauty of music, art, poetry, film) truth which are relative to the individual, metaphysical truth (how do we prove that we are not simply a programmed brain in a vat of fluid) and even some scientific truth (speed of light, or the continuum hypothesis for example).
Here is a quick look at these two scientifically accepted, presupposed “truths”. The speed of light is calculated by measuring the time it takes for the light to return to the point from which it is emitted. Light starts at point A, reaches point B and returns to point A. The time it takes is measured along with distance it traveled. The speed of light can then be calculated correctly. What cannot be proven is that the speed of the light from point A to point B remains the same as the speed from point B back to point A! It is an assumption that it remains unchanged, therefore a presupposed truth.
In the other point he made, he refers to the acceptance of the truth that the universe is subject to the continuum hypothesis. This states that between any two points is another point. This cannot be proven but is also a presupposed truth.
Belief in God, however as the Prof points out, is a provable proper basic. Resulting from the fact that God can be experienced through the Holy Spirit, once that in evidenced by the individual, proving the existence of God becomes irrelevant. True faith is not only the believing THAT God exists, but believing IN God, which is experientially enabled. That, he rightly points out, is why there are so few Christians.
Mike Willenborg, an absolutely brilliant, seriously physically disabled 22 year old in a wheelchair discussed the Resurrection and why it matters.
He was at a serious disadvantage, but not due to his bodily impairment, by any means! His laptop computer had died, resulting in him having to do the entire detailed presentation from memory. He had no other notes and a discerning audience which included theologians! The introduction he was given by the MC earlier had pointed to his genius at Bible school despite his obvious disadvantages and that he was being touted as the next Prof who would be world renowned in the field of apologetics. The high regard which his much older and more experienced team mates have for him was well rewarded, as he delivered an inspired and powerful message from memory and thorough knowledge of Scripture. At times he almost “apologetically” mentioned that he did not have a good memory, but the direct opposite was quite evident. He certainly is blessed in ways that many able bodied would fail to understand. Remember the name; Mike Willenborg.
The conference ended with a Q & A session which lasted about an hour. The majority of excellent and obviously considered questions put to the panel, were from the younger African people in the audience. It seems that quite a few had flown in from neighbouring countries, judging by the French and other foreign accents. Mirroring the debate at the Pretoria University, the quality of the answers from the panel were impeccable and forthright.
The lunch packs were late and when they finally arrived, little time was allowed to eat them, as they were on a tight schedule due to flights out being considered.
Small gifts of appreciation were handed to the panel of esteemed guests by the organisers. Prof Craig was presented with a Bafana-Bafana T-shirt, which he is to wear on the day that South Africa plays in the world cup against USA.
Attendance I estimate at around 700, less than I expected. But then again where there are only two gathered in His name….awesome!! The Lord sent a light warm rain as the last of the cars exited the parking area.
Thanks for this news item Deborah, Dr William Lane Craig is one of my heroes. I listen to him on-line quite often and really enjoyed hearing him demolish Richard Dawkins’ book; “The God Delusion” in about 5 minutes! LOL! I love his logical thinking and his eloquent way of condensing things without sacrificing any of the pertinent points. You should see him debate! WOW! Anyone who wants his website URL, it’s:-
http://www.reasonablefaith.org
Check it out, there are audios and sometimes audio-videos of debates Dr Craig has had with atheists at various universities around the world.
Check it out and enjoy!
Shalom,
Alan.
Alan
Yeah he is brilliant.
I just wish that the Antwoord Ministries would answer my email I sent them. Antwoord ministries hosted Dr William Lane Craig to come debate Sakkie Spangenberg etc and it was brilliant. After some of my sidekicks were scrolling their website they same across some disturbing info as to who they support. So I sent Antwoord Ministries an email:
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from DiscerningTheWorld
to AntWoord Bediening
date 16 May 2010 17:24
subject Campus Crusade for Chirst?
hide details 16 May (9 days ago)
~~~~~~~~
Allo guys
Got a question or 3 for y’all that concerns me a bit.
On your website you say, “We would love to hear from you and we enjoy correspondence with interested parties. If you are interested in apologetics or if you have questions about the Christian faith or need a Christian perspective on an issue of the day, the website we recommend most highly is Leadership University. It is a site maintained by Campus Crusade for Christ and it contains information on a wide range of topics from many different sources.” http://www.antwoord.org.za/english
Do you endorse Bill Bright and the Campus Crusade for Christ who are part of the New Apostolic Reformation?
Also I see you quote Ravi Zacharias “To commit one’s life, habits, thoughts, goals, priorities – everything – to a certain worldview with no questions asked is, from the antagonist’s point of view, to build one’s life upon a very questionable foundation.” Ravi Zacharias
Did you know that Ravi Zacharias has joined sides with Robert Schuller as they spoke together at the “Rethink Conference 2009″ http://www.rethinkconference.com/why.php
Ravi also at the National Day of Prayer in Washington, D.C. agreed to not to pray in the name of Jesus as these were the rules laid down by the prayer breakfast organisation team. That is just NOT cricket!!
Just thought I would let you know. I would like feed back on this because I have been promoting you on my blog and the comments are wideeeee open – even for you guys to come and let us know your thoughts on this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/05/10/faith-reason-conference-10-15-may-2010-south-africa/
Kind Regards
Deborah
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And I aint heard from them since. They were very quick to reply to my emails before. *Oh sighs*
*sounds of crickets here*
News letterS from Pastor Ray Ciervo who was also part of the team on visit to SA. The presentation he gave at the Centurion Conference still eco in my head. He really gave a good message to take to heart.
http://www.rayciervo.com/mediafiles/south-africa.pdf
http://www.rayciervo.com/mediafiles/south-africa-pt2.pdf
Deborah,
Yeah, I know what you’re getting at. Why do they support these people? I really believe that most often they don’t know about the connections to NAR, etc, and even if they did, they may not realise the importance of that. I have recently alerted my pastor to the fact that Mother Theresa was not saved and some of the heretical things she used to believe and teach. Once I showed him the statements she made that revealed her heart, he was humble enough to thank me for showing him the truth about her, which tells me that not all deceived people need to remain that way, if we are faithful to speak the truth in love, the true Christians will accept it gladly. It also tells me to be humble, because NO-ONE is immune from being deceived if they let their guard down.
You and I know that there is the Truth, as in God’s Word (but also as in Jesus Christ; The Way, The Truth, The Life), and then there is everything else. Our view is called ‘narrow’, but I don’t mind, because Jesus said the narrow way is the one that leads us Home.
Unfortunately, the majority of people out in Christendom, have been taught by baby preachers, who drink milk themselves and who therefore don’t even know how to prepare meat dishes and would probably burn the meat (or themselves) if they tried it. I have maintained for many years that Christians actually NEED persecution, or some kind of hardship, to really learn to hear the Holy Spirit’s voice and I believe we are coming to a time where by the grace of God, comfortable, easy going, western Christians are going to be tested by fire. Actually, it has begun. Many people in countries such as America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc, are being divided as per Luke 12:51-53. All around I see and hear of churches, friendships, even marriages, that are being tested and tried and sometimes parted, because some insist on the Truth above all, while others want to hang on to their wrong ideas of a God who loves everyone and will accept everything done in His name, because y’know; God is Love!
Yes He is. He’s also a consuming fire, but no-one likes to hear about that attribute of God. The idea that we should fear God, is thought of as legalism, or dismissed with a comment such as;
“Oh that’s an OLD Testament idea, we are under grace now!”. They obviously haven’t read Hebrews 10:31, or 12:29, or indeed the whole book, preferring to repeat John 3:16 over and over like a broken record.
Anyhow, Christians that I have met from countries such as China, Syria, and several African nations, seem to be much more attuned to the leading of the Holy Spirit, because of the opposition to the Gospel in those countries, compared with here in ‘Oz’, or the USA (particularly the USA!), where it is easy to be a ‘Christian’. Do you see what I’m getting at? Christians in the western world mostly are still milk drinkers because they haven’t NEEDED to grow that fast.
Until now.
Now God is shaking things that need shaking and there are some who are repenting of their slackness, while others are wondering what all the fuss is about and there are many on different levels of awareness and knowledge. Some are going to grow as they turn to the scriptures (Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God) in earnest and begin to listen for the Holy Spirit’s voice. Some are going to be complacent and stay in their non-challenging, seeker friendly, warm, comfortable, saucepans, never realising that there will come a time when it will be too late to jump out as some are beginning to do.
I pray that as those of us who are watchmen cry out in warning, that some will hear the Word, and faith will come and they will hear the voice of the Spirit and be saved.
There are some that I do know, who have gone too far from the Lord, as the writer of Hebrews says in Ch.6:4-6. These we are told to shun, to the point of not even wishing them Godspeed (2 John v.9-11). What a dreadful thing to consider, that we are effectively commanded NOT to pray for them. I believe that God will reveal to us by His Spirit who those people are, because otherwise we could break that injunction unwittingly. We cannot know the hearts of men, except God reveal to us those for whom we should not pray.
I hope this is an encouragement to you to not give up on people too early, but at the same time remain faithful to the command to be separate, which can be a fine line to tread, don’t you think? I find that the only way to do so is to diligently search the scriptures praying that the Lord will keep us from drifting from the truth.
I pray for you Hebrews 13:20-21,
God bless you,
Alan.
Alan
Yip, I know what you mean. I sent my email to Antwoord because I had to tell them. They now know and being an apologetics ministry they would be the first to ‘test’ surely? Well. I pray they do. I did my bit, now it’s upto them.
The shaking that is going on is the Holy Spirit waking people up who were sleeping to the horrors that have surrounded them without even realising it. And I agree on the persecution thing- I myself had to hit rock bottom in my life because I didn’t want Jesus in my life. And through that Jesus lifted me up again – only because I wanted Him too. But it was not easy, I suffered much pain. But as each day went by I clung onto Jesus for dear life, as I do now. And I came out of the hole I had dug myself because of disobedience to God. Jesus lifted me out of there, but I had to crawl cos I was still wounded, and I could not look back – I refused to look back. And later I was standing, and now I am running and hop skipping and jumping.
I pray that everyone comes to see the truth, but there will be many who wont. There are some who are far gone, some who seem far gone but are being convicted by the Holy Spirit and there is still a chance, and then there are those who were just asleep and are only now waking up to what they have been involved in all this time and God is pulling them out.
I once told a guy on this blog that if I told him the truth no holds barred or if I told him the truth and gave him a box of chocolates which one would he listen too? It came out that neither would work on him. It was the truth that was the problem. No matter how you say it, it cuts!
Deborah
Yeah, I hear you. My younger daughter (19 in July) has only recently been saved, after some really tough years. I was so tempted to preach to her, or try and teach her, but in the end, I just prayed and asked God to move in her heart and the Lord worked a miracle! She is so different that people all ask her; “What’s different with you?” The hard part is watching her trying to talk to her mother about why she doesn’t like being at the house because of how Sonya is living with this guy now. She says to me; “Mum’s so lost, she has no morals at all.” Yet Emily still loves her mother and tries to be a good witness to her without alienating her. Personally, I believe that Sonya will have to hit the bottom of a very dark hole, before she MIGHT listen for the voice of the Lord again, but I also fear that from her words to me, she may have seared her conscience and be unable to hear, in which case she really IS lost. It is searingly painful to consider such a thing for one who has been ‘flesh of my flesh’, but I try to follow Paul’s example in 1st Cor. 5:5 and 1st Tim. 1:20 and leave it alone.
I get well-meaning friends who tell me that I have to “come to terms with the situation and I should remain friends with Sonya for the sake of our girls. Y’know, the old love your enemies bit, not that I’m not prepared to do that, but the fact remains that we are also commanded to separate from those who deny Christ, which is in effect what Sonya is doing. I have wrote to her three times, confessing my own faults and failings, but also pleading with her to consider what the Bible has to say about marriage and divorce, and most of all real love and forgiveness, and not to close her ears to what the Holy Spirit is saying to her.
I know that the Lord has told me to take this step, but I will leave it to Him to direct Emily and Kate (my older, married daughter) as to how they should deal with their mother.
I find it hurtful when I get ‘advice’ that goes against what I know the Lord has told me or is telling me, particularly in this situation, but I believe God is teaching me to rely only on Him, which is a great comfort.
Then there are those people from our old PDL, Seeker-sensitive church, who are critical and tell Sonya I have a ‘religious spirit’, or I’ve become a fanatical legalist, or even that I’m mentally unhinged. The harsher comments are that I am being mentally, or even spiritually abusive by saying that her actions are sins against God. I apparently have a warped view of God’s love and compassion and should just be gracious to Sonya and her boyfriend. For the record, I have never beaten her, or abused her in such a way as to warrant her fearing me, although I been guilty of neglecting her spiritual well-being, by not being careful to keep myself following the Lord as closely as I should and thereby being a husband as in Ephesians 5.
I’m sharing this here, because I believe in being as transparent as I can be, and I also want you to understand that when I say I know how you feel about folks who don’t listen, or are critical, or are cruel to you, I really do understand all that comes with being faithful to the scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit. People who think it’s all milk and honey are kidding themselves. It COSTS to follow the Lord. But then, where else would we go? He has the words of life.
Shalom Deborah, take the words of Numbers 6:24-26 as a blessing from the Lord to you,
in Jesus’ name,
Alan.
PS; On my computer, I still see the Gravatar icon, not a photo. No biggie, just puzzled. :-)
Alan.
Alan
Really? Press Ctrl+F5 (that will clear anything cached on your side) Cos I/weeeee can see you.
“We” as in my Parrot and I lol He plays a major role in my blog. He gently removed my left CTRL button and then later the ‘end’ button on the right side. At the moment my space bar has been giving me uphill and I have a sneaky suspicion it has to do with a very intelligent animal with grey feathers and a red tail.
Alan
Are you an South African Aussie or just an Aussie? lol
Deborah
I use a Mac, so I emptied the cache by another method, then reloaded the page and it still looks like a li’l pink guy! ;-)
I’m neither an Aussie, nor South African. :-)
Nor Kiwi neither.
Now I’ve got you thinkin’ hard eh?
I was born in southern England. Dad was of Irish and Scottish blood, born in Yorkshire, raised in Belfast. Mum was from Manchester and also had some Scottish ancestry, so I’m a U.K.ian. Haha!
I grew up in New Zealand, married there 1980 and moved to Melbourne 1981. When people ask me what nationality I am, I usually just say English, because that’s my passport, but my kids say I’m a ‘Heinz’,
which I think is the pot calling the kettle black, because in addition to my checkered background, they have Sonya’s mix thrown in; Hungarian father, Mother; mostly white NZer, with some Maori, and a little bit of Kashmiri Indian, but both my girls were born in ‘Oz’, so we are the mini UN here! LOL!
World cup Rugby gets confusing though!
Alan
Yes, I too see a little pink guy lol.
Deborah
Hey, it’s changed! There’s a little guy with a beard! Oh, that’s me. I got so used to seeing that lil’ pink guy. ;-)
Hey, how come you reply to some of my posts on other parts of this blog? How does that work?
Is there like, some way that I can read all the comments all on the same page or something?
Alan
I have supernatural prophetic powers that enables me to read everything all in one go. Nah it’s called permission to ‘read all’ hahah
This is a must listen Podcast from Prof Wiliam Lane Craig 2010/07/28 The New Reformation Debate
If you can please listen to this. Prof Craig is speaking about this Historical Debate that took place 12 May 2010 at the University of Pretoria.Prof. William Lane Craig and Prof. Michael Licona (Christians) and Prof. Sakkie Spangenberg and Prof. Hansie Wolmarans (Non-Christians)
Listen to the podcast here The New Reformation Debate