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Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again…

7DTW AuthorIcon75 Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again...

AndrewStrom1 Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again...

Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again…

This is becoming a habit Andrew Strom and very irritating.  Come now, stop it.

This email just came into my mailbox from REVIVAL List by Andrew Strom.  Read and Laugh.

~~~~~~~~

REVIVAL IN SOUTH AFRICA

ANDREW:  A couple of years ago I was in South Africa and wrote when I got back how encouraged I was to see how God was moving in that nation – especially amongst the white Afrikaners – which was powerful and amazing. Below is another report of the great things happening in that country:

My name is Jeff Zak, and I am a minister in Nelson BC, Canada.

I just came back from South Africa, and attended the Mighty Men’s

Conference at Shalom farm, with Angus Buchan-  450,000 men
were there – [they only expect 300,000 for the World Cup there] it
was a powerful and incredible time – I know of one other Canadian
who was there at this time… repentance was preached at all
sessions – thousands of first time professions of Christ took place…
we were awakened art 4:30 am by the bugles for prayer at the
camp… I stayed with a group of Australian brothers, and a
pastor from the Congo…

My father died while I was there, and I could not make it back
for the funeral, and my family encouraged I complete the itinerary
[My wife and I, Marilyn, have six children] – however, I later had
the privilege of preaching in colored churches, and a Congo
church in Durban SA and an Indian church in Petermirizberg –
these people are hungry for God – the Zulus are up at 5 am praying
daily while I was there – one church of colored people in Cape
Town had been on a 21 day Daniel fast when I arrived, and were
breaking it today… so it was easy to speak there in that atmosphere…

So, there is a prosperity message problem in some
churches, but not in the township churches I visited-  God is also
doing great things, and revealing the cross, His sacrifice of His
Son for the sin of mankind, and his love for those who turn to him…
I believe I saw revival breaking out at the camp MAC 2010, and
pray God will move throughout Africa & the earth… a pastor brother
from Nigeria shared that they are experiencing revival in his area as well…

http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/

YES! – You have permission to post these emails to friends or other groups, boards, etc – unless there is something different written in the Copyright notice above.

———————-

Why are we laughing Andrew Strom?  Because you can’t tell the truth from a lie if it jumped out and bit you on the nose.   You say you moved away from the New Apostolic Reformation and Peter Wagner et al YET Andrew… this is going to come as a shock to you, but Andrew…

*going to give the bad news too you very gently*

Angus Buchan and the whole Revival in South Africa is part of the New Apostolic Reformation.  Yes, your friends :)

Please see here for the truth, if you care Andrew.  And in case you didn’t know, Revival in ‘False Christian terminology” really means a Transformation to Socialism.  http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/08/04/what-did-you-think-revival-meant/

Now that you know this, will you stop promoting Socialism?  Or will you once again prove to us that you are a false teacher supporting the antiChrist?

We wait with bated breaths, but we won’t hold them too long.  I think 10 seconds should do it.

The Might Men Conference 2010 was supposed to be the LAST MMC by Angus Buchan (dubbed The Completion).  Their numerology calculations was based on the fact that there were 7 MMC’s and 7 is the number of completion.  Then after Eugène Terre’Blanche’s murder they realised they needed to go back to their numbers so they calculated 7+1 = 8 and that gives them reason to hold 2 MMC’s in Soweto (The number 8 being the number of new beginnings).

Also the Global Day of Prayer that will be held in South Africa soon has Cindy Jacobs as a speaker (Cindy Jacobs – Right Wing Xtian Nazi Communist) and George Otis Jr.   Yes, Andrew… and it’s no mistake on their part.  Angus Buchan is part and parcel of C. Peter Wagner’s NAR.

See the following articles on Angus Buchan and friends:

  1. Angus Buchan’s Holy Ghost Chaos or….was it Something Else.
  2. NAR Invasion of SA – Rick Joyner, Angus Buchan, Danie Slabbert, Nevil Norden @ Apostolic Prophetic Conference – July 2012
  3. Angus Buchan and the Roman Catholic Reconciliation
  4. The ‘Manifest Sons of God’ belief of Angus Buchan
  5. The Dominionist Faith of Angus Buchan – Faith Like Potatoes
  6. Open Letter to Graham Power regarding the Unashamedly Ethical Campaign
  7. Angus Buchan and the Promise Keepers
  8. Stand Up and be Counted – Might Men Conference 2010
  9. Angus Buchan, Benny Hinn and God TV (with Wendy and Rory Alec)
  10. Graham Power & Angus Buchan – The Transformation of Africa
  11. Dion Forster and The Drive By Rebuking Video
  12. Turn2God at the Union Buildings was…
  13. What did YOU think Revival meant?
  14. National Initiative for the Reformation of South Africa – NIRSA
  15. Elza Meyer Attacked by Demons, Saved by Son
  16. Cindy Jacobs – Two Truly False Prophecies for Zimbabwe and Africa
  17. False Teachers and Prophets – Methods of Operation
  18. Why does Angus Buchan get promoted by God TV

SEE LATEST:  Andrew Strom and J Lee Grady – False Teachers waiting for the Spiritual Revival of the Roman Catholic Church

pixel Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again...

96 comments to Andrew Strom gets it WRONG again…

  • cecilia

    pheeeeeeww! blown away!

  • Burning Lamp

    I would say read it and cry. Cry out of grief for Strom’s blindness and ignorance. He could be compared to someone with a deadly disease who underwent treatment and thought it was cured but in fact it is still viable. In a twist of irony he is now a carrier of this deadly disease of which he claims to be “cured”. That makes him more of a threat than when he went for it whole-hog and when it was coming in through the front door rather than sneaking through the back as it is now.

    Note my post under the Angus thread – he is now welcomed at the 150 anniversary of the Andrew Murray revival. What a travesty!

  • Elmarie A

    Yikes !!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    Yeah I should have said, ‘cry’ instead of laugh. But I’ve run out of tears.

    What amazes me is that there are MANY websites who exposed WoF and NAR and when Andrew Strom said he no longer supported them then they all jumped for joy and now support him. So I went and looked for a common denominator on these websites – they are Calvinists. What shocked me more is that I used to be able to comment on these websites back in the day. When I tried to tell them about Andrew Strom and tried to explain the Transformations movement to them my comments were deleted. Could not even get 1 comment on there. 1 comment would have been fair.

    I then received a nice email from one of the blog owners who I used to respect telling me. ‘Sorry for deleting your comment, I just felt I had to do what I had to do’. Okaayy then… whatever that means. Obviously trying to cover up what they ‘really’ follow.

    So what were these so called discernment blogs really against? Prosperity. They had no clue about Transformation and don’t want to know about it because they can’t see how ‘being nice to someone and sharing’ is bad. When it’s not about that – it’s about the underlying false doctrine that accompanies it.

    That reminds me. There is a blog I used to comment on a lot that I need to speak against now. I have been convicted for a long time by the Holy Spirit about this, and the only reason I have not done it, is because I am embarrassed to say I was caught by the owner of this website because I WANTED TO BELIEVE they were legit. See, what I ‘thought’ and what God was telling me all the time were 2 different things. Oh boy… can you see why I have run out of tears? lol What a disaster.

  • Good for you in exposing Andrew Strom.
    He is damaging the unity of the body of Christ
    and hurting the leadership that is being raised up by God
    teaching the whole Gospell that displaces the denominations who have given only half measures and are full of teachers that deny the power of the cross.

    Strom’s so called discernment is well off, pure prejudice.

    See below

    Stroms own writings show he lacks real discernment.

    THE “TORONTO” CONTROVERSY – DISTURBING NEW FACTS FROM HISTORY
    by Andrew Strom.

    Strom misses real deception and fails to reveal the key facts.
    He quotes in the article Jessie Penn-Lewis as an authority on exposing deception.
    If Andrew is really discerning he would realise that she was a very questionable influence on the Welsh revival and a major source of damage?

    Please read the below – it is the most chilling example of deceptions ever to touch revival,
    I quote from:

    http://www.sermonindex.net
    War on the Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts

    J. Penn – Lewis is thought by some to be the primary reason the Welsh Revival was quenched. In it’s height, Roberts quit leading, and moved to her estate. Evidently there were some issues with unruliness and “order.”, and the manifestation of devils in the meetings. Penn-Lewis influenced Evans to see it her way. This book, WAR ON THE SAINTS was written there. 6 months after the revival, which had a strong social impact…in that the Pubs shut down, and the jails empty and arrests were Nil…not counting a general repentance from the coal mines to the fabric mills…everything reverted back to it’s former realm of unbelief. Evans tried to make a comeback, but it could not happen. He never returned to ministry of any kind. He never married, and became a poet…mired in general obscurity.

    Mrs. Penn-Lewis continued as a speaker, and was well known in her circles and at various conventions.
    She Prophesied, and recorded them, and believed that her prophecies held the same authority as the Word of God, and God himself spoke as she did.
    One of the phenomena of the Welsh revival was worship; the singing of hymns and songs, for hours and hours during their meetings. There was not , in general , anointed Apostolic preaching and instruction as it’s base….and in my opinion was the core reason why it crumbled. Eventually, as I see it, it was turned over to a controlling woman , who saw fit to discredit it; and Evans Roberts was culpable. It is a very sad testimony in the annuls of revival, but one that we should glean from.

    Revivals must be stewarded by mature and holy men who cling to the Word alone, and have the authority to prune it when necessary, and to nurture it…by allowing the Lord the Spirit to rule alone.

    Considering Penn-Lewis? Maybe it was her who was warring against the Saints.
    http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25727&forum=13&7

    Second account
    Many people became associated with the revival as it grew. Among these was a well-to-do woman named Jessie Penn- Lewis. For years Penn-Lewis had considered herself a Bible teacher, but she had never found a broad acceptance for her teachings. She had largely been rejected or ignored by most church leaders in Wales. At first, Jessie Penn-Lewis appeared as a friend and financial supporter to Evans Roberts. She gained his confidence, and began speaking into his life.
    Long time friends of Evans Roberts expressed concerns that she appeared to isolate Roberts too much, but Roberts trusted Penn-Lewis completely. She began to minister certain messages to Roberts, which appeared to him to be profound corrections from the Lord. These filled him with condemnation. He was convinced her deep “truths”were things he needed to hear.
    Mrs. Penn-Lewis began to express her“concern”to Evans that with the revival’s great success, perhaps too much glory was going to Evans Roberts instead of to God. The thought of stealing God’s glory horrified the sincere young man. He began to think that perhaps others should lead for a while.
    Penn-Lewis convinced Evans Roberts to withdraw from public ministry, and to move into the Penn-Lewis home. Evans Roberts never returned to the ministry. The Welsh revival ended quickly and quietly.
    After a short time in the Penn-Lewis home, Evans Roberts began experiencing severe bouts of depression. Often he was unable to leave the bed for days at a time. He appeared nervous and anxious. By today’s standards he was in severe clinical depression. It took a toll on his health.
    Meanwhile, Penn-Lewis began writing articles and letters in Evans Roberts’name, and on his behalf. These were published in both Roberts and Penn-Lewis’name, and eventually, in her name alone. According to many former close associates of Evans Roberts, some of the works attributed to him could not possibly have had his approval.
    http://www.jonhamilton.org/The%20Nature%20of%20Our%20Enemy.pdf

    By aligning himself with Penn-Lewis, Strom enters the very place of association with deception.
    This is one of the most chilling example of deceptions ever to touch revival, yet self appointed arch heretic hunter Strom totally misses it
    (giving Penn-Lewis his implied approval).

    Can Stroms discernment really be trusted ? I think not.

    Geoff

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Hi Geoff

    Quick question, what do you mean by:

    ‘He is damaging the unity of the body of Christ?’ and ‘hurting the leadership that is being raised by God’?

    I have split your sentense into a two part question.

    Thanks

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah, I share your sentiments – I am weary of all of it. Did you intend to name the blog? If you did, I missed it. My computer is dong weird things and the print has turned tiny and I haven’t figured out yet how to fix it. I have been told that Berit Kjos is Calvinist but I haven’t verified that. I know Tim Challies, Apprising Minidtries, Pirate Radio, Mike Gendrum, Ingrid Schlueter are all Calvinist. Oh, forgot Bob Dewaay. Not sure about Bud Press.

    It seems that the truth and sound doctrine are not important to the discernment community anymore either!

    I have run out of tear also, but am just angry at the hypocrisy. You seem to be the last “man” standing – this blog has become a snactuary for those still clinging to Truth. Of course you will be hated, but you are strengthened by the Lord to
    hang tough.

    What is frustrating is that no one wants to hear and they look at anyone with their head on straight as if they had 3 heads. Please Lord Jesus, come quickly!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    The blog I was referring too where they support andrew strom is pjmiller. wordpress .com – they also link to Early church fathers that links to links on the Blessed virgin Mary etc. When I asked about this too my comment was deleted. Also some other strange stuff on PJMillers site.

    The other blog I will write a full article on as I need to get the article from their website with my comment and show it to the world and then apologise for being a CHOP! I tried to retract my comment by apologising there publicly and they deleted it, so they leave me no choice but to apologise here. Their mistake.

  • Justin

    This is what I see.

    1. Andrew Storm has left the Kansas City Prophets. NAR. He seem to have sympathisers in the calvinist ( another false teaching) that now has Paul Washer as their flag bearer.

    Either way he has yet to go into the wilderness like Paul, Abraham or Jesus and learn the truth for himself. If he had done that he would quit the speaking circuit and just share real truth he learns each day.

    I see 2 false revival
    1. False lying signs and wonders.(JOhn Chowder, Todd , NAR etc)
    2. False holiness – by scare tactics. Big difference between conviction and condemnation. Holy Spirit convicts not condemns, the devil condemns. The gospel convicts and provides the Good News. Not usescare tactics to produce a bunch of instant calvinist like Paul washer.

    Justin John

    My question?

    Do you have evidence this is so? That he has aligned himself with Calvinists and running his own show. Thank for this post. I put on my Facebook Page.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Justin John

    Can I just add a bit to No.2 What is really meant by revival is Social Transformation.

    I don’t remember saying that Andrew Strom has aligned himself with Calvinists. But I see you say that he has. I am confused. lol. Who are you asking this question too?

  • Justin

    I am asking if Andrew Storm has aligned himself to calvinist. Not you. Do you have evidence if he has. Now that you mentioned. You (deborah) are you a clavinits? lol. Justin

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Justin

    No I am not a calvnist. I just exposed Calvinism and have a hard time because did. See here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/20/paul-washer-practice-the-presence-silence-and-meditation/ and and
    http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/05/16/ingrid-schlueter-celebrates-holy-cross-day/

    Re Strom aligning himself with Calvinists. Well that is something I can alwaaaaays find out :)

    PS, If Andrew Strom replies to you on this blog then consider it to be a sign and wonder lol.

  • ELIZABETH WRIGHT

    My son ran off with Andrews group and said he could have nothing to do with us because we were materialistic…Andrew Strom is a pied piper youth pastor who wants no Adults in his ministry because they are a threat! My son has since left the group and we are waiting for him to come full circle…we still see lingering false beliefs…

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Elizabeth

    Goodness. Does Andrew actually have a church group? I’ve never really bothered to check. Are there many of them or just one? You know it’s difficult responding to comments like yours because when you hear things like this it’s shocking.

    I see he is now going on about a new thing called the Emergent church that is gaining ground. Oh my word… this guy is so in another time zone.

  • Hi. I’ve wondered about Andrew myself. Sometimes he says things that seem right and other times he sounds just like those he claimed to have separated from. I also get the impression he writes about things that others have already exposed, in a way that makes them sound like they are his own “revelations”. I know we all learn from each other but there is a pattern I have been seeing with him. I also cannot stand it when anyone who refers to themselves or their ministry as John the Baptist. It was either Dutch Sheets or Lou Engle who just recently did the same thing, and when I saw Andrew’s new endeavor with the same name it really bothered me. They are not preparing the way of the Lord; He has already come. ugh.

    Having come out of charismania – healing rooms – false prophetic – the supernatural – myself I am still working through what I believe. I have a blog in which I warn others – mostly in what I personally experienced, but sometimes use the experience and teachings of others. Some of them you have named here. I guess we all need to pay very close attention to who we trust and take teaching from.

    I appreciate your time and focus. Thanks for the work you do.

  • Meg

    Thank you for exposing Andrew Strom. I was on the e-mailing list and I didn’t know about his false teachings until I run into your page. I did have a facebook link of him and his group, but something was telling of my back of my head when I see the word ‘Revival Teacher’. I only see the word ‘revial’ and I begain to qustion it, but I bush it off. After I read this article, I go ahead and remove him from my facebook page and I send a e-mail to remove me from the mailing list. I did not know the word ‘revial’ is not found in the Bible. I need to check these people out before I know if they are really preach a Biblical truth.

  • Tom

    Meg,

    Just because the word “revival” isn’t in the bible doesn’t mean that it’s unbiblical. God has revived the church many times throughout it’s history.

    Deborah,

    Just because someone is what you call a “Calvinist” doesn’t mean they’re a heretic. Some of the men that God has used the most in the history of the church have held some of these beliefs.

  • Ian Armstrong

    Calvinism is the teaching of the reformation and is a true interpretation of sound Biblical doctrine. No other body of teaching adequately explains salvation by grace alone and revelation through the Bible alone. If I had known these things earlier in my walk with Christ, I would have avoided the errors of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement.
    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

  • laura

    Andrew Strom was not allowed to enter the US – he has now gone back to Australia/New Zealand. Maybe this will be his wilderness experience and by GOD’S grace, will find Truth.
    We all were in error some time or other. none of us were born with truth.
    Grace AND Truth to you all in Christ Jesus

  • Burning Lamp

    Ian, you think you have found the truth, but you have bought into yet another lie.

    Read the info exposing the errors of TULIP and Calvinism on this site and then do your own research. It is a heresy of the worst sort because it guts the true biblical Gospel.

  • Elmarie A

    Ian Armstrong

    Subject: Troubled by Calvinists
    Question:

    Dr. Craig,

    I am troubled at the mass amount of calvinists I see who are incredibly intelligent and trustworthy christian leaders. What I mean is that, So many seem to be capable of great analysis (far beyond myself), but seem to stick their head in the sand when it comes to the problem of evil. If they don’t, then they tend to make God a self-contradicting being. Why do you think this is so?

    Im also personally troubled at how few leaders I see subscribing to molonism. It seems to me that it answers the most questions and creates the least problems. I understand it can be complex, but I wouldn’t think we would just rest with the problem of evil not being satisfied. I don’t base what I believe on the beliefs of others, but we can’t ignore the influence others have in our lives, or the desire to have a home with others when it comes to these thoughts.

    Anyway, I would enjoy your thoughts… as I always do.

    Thanks,

    Gordon

    Dr. Craig responds:

    I think you’re right, Gordon, that a great many intelligent and godly Christian leaders are Reformed, or followers of John Calvin, in their theology. I’m currently participating in a four-views book on divine providence along with a pair of Reformed theologians. It is evident from their contributions that, despite the intellectual puzzles raised by the Reformed view, they both embrace it because they are convinced that it most faithfully represents the teaching of Scripture on the subject, Scripture being the only authoritative rule of faith.

    Actually, I have no problem with certain classic statements of the Reformed view. For example, the Westminster Confession (Sect. III) declares that

    God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    Now this is precisely what the Molinist believes! The Confession affirms God’s preordination of everything that comes to pass as well as the liberty and contingency of the creaturely will, so that God is not the author of sin. It is a tragedy that in rejecting middle knowledge Reformed divines have cut themselves off from the most perspicuous explanation of the coherence of this wonderful confession.

    By rejecting a doctrine of divine providence based on God’s middle knowledge, Reformed theologians are simply self-confessedly left with a mystery. The great 17th century Reformed theologian Francis Turretin held that a careful analysis of Scripture leads to two indubitable conclusions, both of which must be held in tension without compromising either one:

    that God on the one hand by his providence not only decreed, but most certainly secures, the event of all things, whether free or contingent; on the other hand, however, man is always free in acting and many effects are contingent. Although I cannot understand how these can be mutually connected together, yet (on account of ignorance of the mode) the thing itself is (which is certain from another source, i.e., from the Word) not either to be called in question or wholly denied (Institutes of Elenctic Theology, 1: 512).

    Here Turretin affirms without compromise both the sovereignty of God and human freedom and contingency; he just doesn’t know how to put them together. Molinism offers a solution. By rejecting that solution, the Reformed theologian is left with a mystery.

    There’s nothing wrong with mystery per se (the correct physical interpretation of quantum mechanics is a mystery!); the problem is that some Reformed theologians, like my two collaborators in the four-views book, try to resolve the mystery by holding to universal, divine, causal determinism and a compatibilist view of human freedom. According to this view, the way in which God sovereignly controls everything that happens is by causing it to happen, and freedom is re-interpreted to be consistent with being causally determined by factors outside oneself.

    It is this view, which affirms universal determinism and compatibilism, that runs into the problems you mention. Making God the author of evil is just one of the problems this neo-Reformed view faces. At least five come immediately to mind:

    1. Universal, divine, causal determinism cannot offer a coherent interpretation of Scripture. The classical Reformed divines recognized this. They acknowledge that the reconciliation of Scriptural texts affirming human freedom and contingency with Scriptural texts affirming divine sovereignty is inscrutable. D. A. Carson identifies nine streams of texts affirming human freedom: (1) People face a multitude of divine exhortations and commands, (2) people are said to obey, believe, and choose God, (3) people sin and rebel against God, (4) people’s sins are judged by God, (5) people are tested by God, (6) people receive divine rewards, (7) the elect are responsible to respond to God’s initiative, (8) prayers are not mere showpieces scripted by God, and (9) God literally pleads with sinners to repent and be saved (Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility: Biblical Perspectives in Tension, pp. 18-22). These passages rule out a deterministic understanding of divine providence, which would preclude human freedom. Determinists reconcile universal, divine, causal determinism with human freedom by re-interpreting freedom in compatibilist terms. Compatibilism entails determinism, so there’s no mystery here. The problem is that adopting compatibilism achieves reconciliation only at the expense of denying what various Scriptural texts seem clearly to affirm: genuine indeterminacy and contingency.

    2. Universal causal determinism cannot be rationally affirmed. There is a sort of dizzying, self-defeating character to determinism. For if one comes to believe that determinism is true, one has to believe that the reason he has come to believe it is simply that he was determined to do so. One has not in fact been able to weigh the arguments pro and con and freely make up one’s mind on that basis. The difference between the person who weighs the arguments for determinism and rejects them and the person who weighs them and accepts them is wholly that one was determined by causal factors outside himself to believe and the other not to believe. When you come to realize that your decision to believe in determinism was itself determined and that even your present realization of that fact right now is likewise determined, a sort of vertigo sets in, for everything that you think, even this very thought itself, is outside your control. Determinism could be true; but it is very hard to see how it could ever be rationally affirmed, since its affirmation undermines the rationality of its affirmation.

    3. Universal, divine, determinism makes God the author of sin and precludes human responsibility. In contrast to the Molinist view, on the deterministic view even the movement of the human will is caused by God. God moves people to choose evil, and they cannot do otherwise. God determines their choices and makes them do wrong. If it is evil to make another person do wrong, then on this view God is not only the cause of sin and evil, but becomes evil Himself, which is absurd. By the same token, all human responsibility for sin has been removed. For our choices are not really up to us: God causes us to make them. We cannot be responsible for our actions, for nothing we think or do is up to us.

    4. Universal, divine, determinism nullifies human agency. Since our choices are not up to us but are caused by God, human beings cannot be said to be real agents. They are mere instruments by means of which God acts to produce some effect, much like a man using a stick to move a stone. Of course, secondary causes retain all their properties and powers as intermediate causes, as the Reformed divines remind us, just as a stick retains its properties and powers which make it suitable for the purposes of the one who uses it. Reformed thinkers need not be occasionalists like Nicholas Malebranche, who held that God is the only cause there is. But these intermediate causes are not agents themselves but mere instrumental causes, for they have no power to initiate action. Hence, it’s dubious that on divine determinism there really is more than one agent in the world, namely, God. This conclusion not only flies in the face of our knowledge of ourselves as agents but makes it inexplicable why God then treats us as agents, holding us responsible for what He caused us and used us to do.

    5. Universal, divine determinism makes reality into a farce. On the deterministic view, the whole world becomes a vain and empty spectacle. There are no free agents in rebellion against God, whom God seeks to win through His love, and no one who freely responds to that love and freely gives his love and praise to God in return. The whole spectacle is a charade whose only real actor is God Himself. Far from glorifying God, the deterministic view, I’m convinced, denigrates God for engaging in a such a farcical charade. It is deeply insulting to God to think that He would create beings which are in every respect causally determined by Him and then treat them as though they were free agents, punishing them for the wrong actions He made them do or loving them as though they were freely responding agents. God would be like a child who sets up his toy soldiers and moves them about his play world, pretending that they are real persons whose every motion is not in fact of his own doing and pretending that they merit praise or blame. I’m certain that Reformed determinists, in contrast to classical Reformed divines, will bristle at such a comparison. But why it’s inapt for the doctrine of universal, divine, causal determinism is a mystery to me.

    So why do so many intelligent and faithful Christian leaders buy into Calvinism? I think that the sort of Calvinism represented by the statement quoted above from the Westminster Confession is a fair summary of Scripture’s teaching and therefore should be believed. It’s only when one goes beyond it to try to resolve the mystery by embracing determinism and compatibilism that one gets into trouble. So insofar as these Christian leaders are content to remain with the mystery, I think theirs is a reasonable position. The vast majority of them have probably little understanding of Molinism and so are just insufficiently informed to make a decision. A few years ago I spoke at Westminster Seminary in San Diego on middle knowledge, and half way through the Q & A period following my talk, one of the faculty said, “I’m embarrassed to say, Dr. Craig, that we aren’t even able to discuss this with you because we just are completely unfamiliar with what you’re talking about.” He was embarrassed that as a professional theologian he was so ignorant of these debates. By contrast, some theologians who belong to the Reformed tradition have moved toward Molinism. When I gave the Stob lectures at Calvin College and Seminary, I was shocked when the theologians at the seminary told me that they were all Molinists! I increasingly encounter people who are moving in the Molinist direction (both from the Calvinistic end and the open theist end of the spectrum!)

    So don’t be too hard on our Calvinist brethren. Offer them something better, and hope that they will embrace it.

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8111

  • Burning Lamp

    I don’t think it is being hard on someone to address damanging error – one should do so in love, but love for them and love for the truth and defense of it should be the motive. The Reformed Gospel is a false gospel, plain and simple.

    Reformed doctrine is an affront to our Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. I am referring to the doctrine of Limited Atonement. Also, the notion that one has no choice in their salvation insults the precious Holy Spirit and the conviction of the sinner. The other petals of the TULIP are equally heretical, but for the sake of brevity, I focus on these two. It doesn’t matter if one is a 5 pointer or less, all of them are poisonous. I respect our well-meaning Calvinist friends for their zeal in refuting Romanism, and other discernment activities but they need to acknowledge the error of their own ways.

    Too many believers are willing to chew up the meat and spit out the bones with popular Reformed and Calvinist authors who mix truth and error. Such authors’ sincerity is not in question, but their biblical position is.

  • PJamas

    Burning Lamp

    I have a problem with the (U) in the TULIP acronym. As for Eternal Security (P) it is sealed for a true believer. We can not judge who is saved and who is not.

    But as a matter of discussion, what’s wrong with the others?

  • Grant C

    Hyper-Calvinism or the form of Calvinism as resultant from the Synod of Dort, in their attempt to refute the points of Arminius (Calvin’s would be successor, scholar and later doctrinal opponent), is obviously fraught with error. (TULIP) was integral to this pronouncement and probably the best interpretation they could give at the time, while they considered their options and their commission to refute all of Arminius’ doctrines.

    The absolute opposite of Calvinism is an even more dangerous, divisive and erroneous position. The protagonists of extreme anti-Calvinistic exegesis, in attempts to categorically overthrow Calvinism in it’s entirety, have been instrumental in the creation of the plethora of protestant alternatives, each with their own concoction of doctrines. Some more correct than others, but mostly all guilty of an attitude of “anything but Calvinism”, even if the Calvinistic point or portion is Biblically correct.

    Here Ian Armstrong makes a case in point, although the truth is somewhat other than what (I think) he believes:

    If I had known these things earlier in my walk with Christ, I would have avoided the errors of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement.

    Here again, Ian comes close to stating the truth, although again I fear he narrowly misses the truth:

    No other body of teaching adequately explains salvation by grace alone and revelation through the Bible alone.

    Ian is partially correct in stating that no other body of teaching attempts to adequately explain the Biblical position as effectively. I certainly believe that the purveyors of the truth in the church have failed in as much as not providing this truth as effectively to the seeker. Thereby those, who could effectively refute the errors of Calvinism, have allowed the far more ludicrous and deadly anti-scriptural interpretors, almost free reign.

    One of the severe negatives resulting from the (TULIP) doctrine is that it certainly creates a bouncing ball for the seeker in trying to ‘catch’ the Biblical position on salvation by grace. Partly because Calvin comes close, but leaves the wrong impression when incorrectly understood. Or should that be, when correctly understood? See how that ball bounces…

    Another odd influence an unhealthy interest in Calvinism and it’s false opposites seem to exert, is the uncanny ability they have to draw the believer back into this type of discussion. In this regard it certainly has enjoyed enormous over-exposure, sowing doubt and confusion and destroying the peace within many true believers.

    It would be far simpler IF one could erase the short period of time and events surrounding Calvin, Arminius and the Reformation. Seeing that this is an impossibility, the next best option might be to ignore those events and teachings and rewind to the Biblical truth which has always been with us.

    This would certainly negate the perceived necessity and urgency for many of our gifted biblical scholars to devote precious time attempting to refute that which many other of our equally gifted biblical scholars are attempting to protect. Absurdities. The true church certainly was never in need of added doctrine, or extra-biblical wisdom. Alas, Satan disagrees and grasps every opportunity to create confusion and diversions wherever possible.

    I recently heard a remarkable answer to the question of whether a particular preacher was a five point Calvinist. He stated that he certainly held to the belief that the five solas are correct. (These are of course, Scripture alone as a measure of the truth and that salvation is by Grace alone, by Faith alone, in Christ alone, for the Glory of God alone). He continued to say that if his belief in the five solas, and his belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, made him a five point Calvinist or a five point Arminian, in the mind of the person posing the question, then yes, he was just that.

    My advice, for what it may be worth, to believers struggling with this issue, is to approach your Bible study in this regard with much prayer. Don’t start with the preconceived idea of wanting to prove or refute Calvinism or any other extra-biblical doctrine; ignore them entirely, they are unnecessary. The Truth is in the Bible, that much we know. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, true believers cannot but find that Truth.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Tom wrote:

    Deborah,

    Just because someone is what you call a “Calvinist” doesn’t mean they’re a heretic. Some of the men that God has used the most in the history of the church have held some of these beliefs.

    Tom

    Please note that I have never called anyone an heretic, except for the rigid doctrine of Calvinism. To say the doctrine is heretical is in NO WAY saying those who are Calvinists are heretics. Good grief, don’t twist my words.

    The fact is the Predestination doctrine of Calvinism turns the gospel of Jesus Christ into a mockery and gives men the right to proclaim themselves better than others, in fact sinless, in no need of repentance because they are chosen, crowned from day one.

    There are millions of Calvinists who are completely unaware of these finer horror points of staunch Calvinism and have the peace and happiness in their hearts like I have to know that they can easily remove the P out of TULIP and everything becomes Biblical again.

    This is the problem. There are really 2 sides to Calvinism. The Staunch 5 point Calvinist vs people like me who hold to all the other points but will refute the P (I mean U, not P) till my dying day.

    Because of the confusion surrounding Calvinism, I don’t call myself a Calvinist.

    Just as you said that the word revival is not mentioned in the Bible, neither is the word Calvinist. However, to be born again is, and I am and I am pretty sure you are too :)

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    It would be far simpler IF one could erase the short period of time and events surrounding Calvin, Arminius and the Reformation. Seeing that this is an impossibility, the next best option might be to ignore those events and teachings and rewind to the Biblical truth which has always been with us

    I totally agree.

    to believers struggling with this issue, is to approach your Bible study in this regard with much prayer. Don’t start with the preconceived idea of wanting to prove or refute Calvinism or any other extra-biblical doctrine; ignore them entirely, they are unnecessary. The Truth is in the Bible, that much we know. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, true believers cannot but find that Truth.

    Ignore them!! Exactly! But people just don’t understand the gospel. People seem to think that the gospel has to be labelled, i.e., Calvinism. Why? I just don’t get it. Satan has managed to successfully shatter the truth into bits and pieces all over the place. As heretical the doctrine of STAUNCH Calvinism is (I am referring to those who hold onto Predestination) Calvinism is the most Biblical doctrine available.

    On the extreme opposite ends of the scale you have Armeniamism which is just as bad and just as heretical.

    If anyone bothers to look in the middle they will notice the gospel truth. Balanced, weighed, tested, measured.

    I sometimes just want to hang my head in my hands and cry.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    I have been told that Berit Kjos is Calvinist but I haven’t verified that. I know Tim Challies, Apprising Minidtries, Pirate Radio, Mike Gendrum, Ingrid Schlueter are all Calvinist. Oh, forgot Bob Dewaay. Not sure about Bud Press.

    BL

    Would you say that they are ‘Predestination’ Calvinists?

    We can’t say who is saved and who is not.

    The reason I am asking is because I have been having long long long conversations with family and friends regarding Calvinism and it’s a very very difficult subject.

    It’s difficult because it’s the EXTREME Calvinists, the STAUNCH Calvinists who are problematic. I would love to just erase the word Calvinist from the dictionary, erase it from history, but we can’t do that.

    The moral of the story is: There are many Calvinists who don’t understand the serious erroneous teachings of Calvinism but call themselves Calvinists and yes they are saved.

    When they learn the truth they won’t want to be called ‘Calvinists’ anymore in name, and they won’t want anything more to do with these teachings. The rest of the Calvinist doctrine technically remains the same as it is biblical.

    Am I making sense?

  • Grant C

    Deborah

    people like me who hold to all the other points but will refute the P till my dying day.

    Just to be clear, the P in TULIP is for Perseverance of the saints (in other words = once saved always saved)

    This from Wikipedia: “Perseverance of the saints”: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints. The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.[11]

    Could it be that you are referring to the U which is for Unconditional Election (in other words the elect having been predestined )?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    Argghhhh I mean the U… UUUUUUUUUUUUU not P. Sorry.

    Braincell was thinking Predestination so I typed P.

  • Grant C

    Deborah

    Thought as much….:0)

  • Burning Lamp

    I don’t believe I have ever made a statement regarding the salvation of Calvinist/Reformed folks. However, the doctrine runs counter to the true message of salvation.

    The P which stands for Perseverance of the Saints does NOT agree with the biblical eternal security of the believer. It stems from a wrong premise, that being that the natural result of Calvinist doctrine is that God picks some to be saved and some to be lost. According to Reformed thought, if God chooses someone to be saved, there is no way the person can lose their salvation because it was not their choice in the first place.

    Every petal in the TULIP is doctrinally wrong, so it really doesn’t make any difference if one subscribes to one tenet or all. The reference to 2 pointers or 5 pointers, etc. really does not make sense.

    That is my two cents worth. It is amazing how we can put on blinders and look the other way simply because we are on the same page in discernment issues. That reminds me of the Christian conservatives who work side by side with false religions for the purpose of promoting morality.

    You can be a Calvinist/Reformed and be saved, but you cannot have the correct view of evangelism.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Burning Lamp

    Sorry, I did not mean it to sound like you said some where saved and others not. That was bad grammar on my part. I was speaking in general and I was actually including myself in that sentence.

    And yes, when it comes to the message of salvation (hyper) Calvinism runs right over it, tramples it and then some. Rips out the joy, peace and happiness that is salvation in Jesus Christ.

    Can we be clear that there are the Hyper Calvinists (those who know and hold onto TULIP) and then the plain old ‘Calvinist’ person on the street who is non the wiser about these things? I need to be sure that we make this distinction.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    Burning Lamp wrote:

    …It is amazing how we can put on blinders and look the other way simply because we are on the same page in discernment issues…

    Your 2 cents please.

  • Amanda

    A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism

    Hyper-Calvinism, simply stated, is a doctrine that emphasizes divine sovereignty to the exclusion of human responsibility. To call it “hyper-Calvinism” is something of a misnomer. It is actually a rejection of historic Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism entails a denial of what is taught in both Scripture and the major Calvinistic creeds, substituting instead an imbalanced and unbiblical notion of divine sovereignty.
    Hyper-Calvinism comes in several flavors, so it admits no simple, pithy definition. Here are a few definitions to consider. I’ll comment briefly on these and then propose a more comprehensive definition:

    Read it all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    You read mine first :)

  • Amanda

    Deborah

    What do you mean read yours first? I haven’t even read my own! I tried, really I did, but then my eyes cross over and I start coughing. My “read it all” is something I picked up at Jihad Watch. It is to indicate that the quote is not the complete article and you have to follow the link to get to the rest of the information should you be interested. You can also use “read the rest here” and place the link with the word “here”.

    I placed that link as it seems to me that when you venture to talk about Calvinism, you have to define your terms precisely and be able to exegete the word “for”:

    The problem lies with the ambiguity regarding the word “for.” As Shedd and RB Kuiper acknowledge, “for” in this context can have multiple meanings.

    So like Shedd, if “for” means Christ died for all men in the sense of bearing the common sin of all men, then he died for all. If “for” means the intent and purpose to effectually save some and not others, then Christ did not, in this sense, die for all men.

    Only if “for” means the latter sense could your argument begin to work, for then God would have an intent and purpose to effectually bring about some end, and yet he fails in that end.

    The point is, your argument only works on the assumption that 1) “for” can only have one univocal meaning, and 2) that you assume your opponent must see “for” as some purpose or intent, by some will of intention, whereby God aims to accomplish and end, and yet fails.

    The moderate-Classic Calvinist position, however, says that Christ died for all men in one sense, as an expression of the revealed will, and sustaining an unlimited expiation (Shedd, Dabney) but he died for the elect, in the sense, as an expression of the decretive will to effectually. save the elect only.

    And so the moderate-classic Calvinist can say that Christ died for all, in that he was punished for the common and human sin, of which all men participate in, and yet in doing so, intended the salvation of the elect alone.

    Read the rest here. Or not. I would be very surprised if my comment is in any way helpful to anybody anywhere.

    I know that Dave Hunt said:

    Multitudes of sincere, Bible-believing Christians seem to have accepted Calvinism by default, thinking that their only choice is between a doctrine of eternal security and a doctrine of falling away.

    Aha! See? That does not help either. How about I go and make everybody a nice cup of tea?

  • Burning Lamp

    Color me simplistic, but I don’t get this Hyper Calvinism stuff. I think of Hyper describing someone who is bouncing off the walls.

    Anyone who buys into any of TULIP to me is just plain wrong. Not one of them, even the P, which is based on the false premise of the others, is wrong.

    How can one believe that Christ died “for” all and yet believe He only accepts certain ones? That question is rhetorical because it speaks for itself.

  • Grant C

    Deborah

    …It is amazing how we can put on blinders and look the other way simply because we are on the same page in discernment issues…

    Your 2 cents please.

    It would be very difficult to continue indefinitely to divorce a Biblical understanding of other discernment issues, from a Biblical understanding of salvation doctrine. The two are fundamentally interlinked; discernment in all matters is important.

    As I mentioned above, if believing in the inerrancy of the Bible in formulating one’s understanding, makes one a five point Calvinist, or a two point Arminian, or a three point arnaecholonogiripolanist, or as you call it an obscrobonopolist, according to the opinion of someone else, then so be it.

    I should not add much to that which I said in previous comment, as that is the basic framework of my position.

    We cannot change the fact that the Vatican is a reality. Do we allow that to influence our relationship with Jesus, or do we prayerfully ignore the Vatican’s advice to us, mostly? Seeing as we cannot change the fact that Calvin, Arminius and the Council of Dort were here, what should we do with their advice?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Agreed.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Amanda

    You know what the problem really is?

    Some chop came along and placed the word ‘Calvinism’ over 95% of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and then a whole bunch of big chops came along and created a few serious errors and attached acronyms to them also under the name of Calvinism.

    Anyone want some chocolate cake with their tea?

  • Burning Lamp

    Actually I prefer scones.

  • Grant C

    Amanda / Deborah

    I’ve been waiting since six o’clock when Amanda said she was going to make tea and since half past nine since Deborah offered chocolate cake. Now I’m thirsty and hungry and going to make my own with a ginger cookie.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    You are in luck. I am going to actually BAKE scones on tuesday! Yes I bake as well. I am a jack of all trades haha. I will fax you some :) Apricot jam and cream? I feel sorry for my fax machine.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    Oh lol, 1 little ginger biscuit? I’ll fax you a scone on tuesday.

  • Amanda

    Grant

    I do apologize for the non-delivery, but a funny thing happened when I set out the tray. I noticed an enormous storm brewing in one of the cups. At first I was delighted, thinking of faxing a copy to all the dry places in the country, but hesitated at the thought of waterless clouds producing only sound and fury and runaway fires. I sought information on the Internet that would help determine my course of action, but got sidetracked when I stumbled upon these two very helpful non-helpful dictionaries clarifying obfuscating the subject under discussion:

    Calvinist Dictionary

    A dictionary to help Arminians better understand Calvinist terminology.
    (Don’t take this too seriously, this is meant in good fun)

    All: The elect

    Altar Call: An insult to God

    Arminianism: Man centered theology

    Assurance: hoping that you’re elect

    Augustine: The first church father.

    Calvinism: The gospel

    Call (effectual): to be irresistibly dragged

    Call (general): God’s justification to condemn the reprobate.

    Catholicism: What Arminianism leads to.

    Compatiblism: We are free to do whatever the Potter decrees us to do.

    There is more.

    A Dictionary of Arminian Terms

    Triablogue
    Wednesday, May 28, 2008
    A Dictionary of Arminian Terms

    All (1): All always means all. Yup, Jesus died for every single human, including those already dead and in hell, and even including himself.

    Amazing Grace: Horrible song composed by a Calvinist. Teaches wretched “doctrines of grace.”

    Argument (1): The mean things Calvinists do, means: a group of propositions wherein the truth of one is asserted on the basis of the evidence furnished by the others.

    Argument (2): An unfortunate term for how Arminians lovingly discuss the glorious truth of Scripture, means: if it feels good, it probably is.

    Arminius, Jacob: The first church father.

    Assurance: Keep trying, hopefully you’ll make it, but since you have libertarian free will, you could just flip sides one day. Never can tell.

    Bible: Cool book with stories that can be used as springboards into inspiring sermons about nothing to do with the text whatsoever. (See exegesis.)

    Calvinism: We love everyone, because God is love. Calvinists are devil worshipers, their God is the devil, and Calvinism is a devil worshiping doctrine. We love them.

    Calvin, John: Satan incarnated.

    Christian: Someone with fish bumper sticker on car who repeated a prayer after a pastor with a head-mic on.

    Context: Another text that I can put together with the text at hand to render the meaning satisfactory to my philosophical preconceptions. Example: John 6:44 and John 12:32 (no surrounding verses allowed, please).

    Determinism: False Calvinist teaching that God makes sure that his plan will come about.

    Devil Worship: What Calvinism leads to. (Really.)

    Drawing: Wooing. Usage example: “Drawing doesn’t mean God will surely bring men to himself, he (now, pooch lips out, making a small opening, and, in a low voice say) woooos them.”

    Dude: Term used in sermon at least 15 times, makes us interesting to non-Christians (See missions.)

    I am torn between staring at my little tea cup and solving the Calvinist / Arminian problem. As soon as I have determined whether or not I have the free will to do the impossible, I shall make my decision. Or not.

  • Amanda

    Burning Lamp

    You meant to say:

    Anyone who buys into any of TULIP to me is just plain wrong. Not one of them, even the P, which is based on the false premise of the others, is right.

    ?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Oh my word that is hysterical. Your tea cup story actually made me look at the sky… no clouds.

  • Burning Lamp

    Amanda, I always get into trouble when trying to use double negatives. Thanks for the correction. And your tempest in a tea cup is well, SO insightful. Just don’t get into reading the tea leaves.

    And Debs, I don’t care if the scones with jam and cream destroy my fax machine – it will be worth it! I am salivating at the thought!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    BL

    Oh ja, I forgot about your fax machine too LOL. Cool. Tuesday is Scone day. Yay!

  • Grant C

    Amanda

    That should be printed, signed and framed! The hilarity of absurdity is very often closer to the truth than meets the eye at first glance. Otherwise it just wouldn’t be funny!

    Debs my fax packed up years ago and the paper picture of the squashed scone wouldn’t taste very good, anyway. Could you rather e-mail the scones. Please?

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Grant

    Hmmm, I dunno how to get the scone into my computer to email lol.

  • Burning Lamp

    Grant, you never cease to amaze me! What a novel idea! I can see Debs scurrying around in her kitchen whipping up those scones – hope they get here in time for breakfast! It is permissible to eat them for breakfast? I am not up on tea ettiquete.

  • Glenn C. Abernethy

    I don’t know what to say about what I see and read on this site. Lord help us all.

  • Chris

    Christians?! We dont need a prophet to see the harvest arising from the stinking seed, sown on this site.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Chris

    >>Christians?! We dont need a prophet to see the harvest arising from the stinking seed, sown on this site.

    Aye yes, we have many TARES like yourself come and comment daily. They try their best to sow animosity, and evil teachings, but we cut them down to size quickly using the WORD OF GOD AS OUR SWORD.

  • donna

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Burning Lamp
    Yeah I should have said, ‘cry’ instead of laugh. But I’ve run out of tears.
    What amazes me is that there are MANY websites who exposed WoF and NAR and when Andrew Strom said he no longer supported them then they all jumped for joy and now support him. So I went and looked for a common denominator on these websites – they are Calvinists. What shocked me more is that I used to be able to comment on these websites back in the day. When I tried to tell them about Andrew Strom and tried to explain the Transformations movement to them my comments were deleted. Could not even get 1 comment on there. 1 comment would have been fair.
    I then received a nice email from one of the blog owners who I used to respect telling me. ‘Sorry for deleting your comment, I just felt I had to do what I had to do’. Okaayy then… whatever that means. Obviously trying to cover up what they ‘really’ follow.
    So what were these so called discernment blogs really against? Prosperity. They had no clue about Transformation and don’t want to know about it because they can’t see how ‘being nice to someone and sharing’ is bad. When it’s not about that – it’s about the underlying false doctrine that accompanies it.
    That reminds me. There is a blog I used to comment on a lot that I need to speak against now. I have been convicted for a long time by the Holy Spirit about this, and the only reason I have not done it, is because I am embarrassed to say I was caught by the owner of this website because I WANTED TO BELIEVE they were legit. See, what I ‘thought’ and what God was telling me all the time were 2 different things. Oh boy… can you see why I have run out of tears? lol What a disaster.

    Deb, thank you for admitting you can be wrong sometimes, this is again written after my rant about the koran buring issues and the threat of burning new apostolic teachers writings. I am at my wits end with all this false teachings and sure would like to know how you manage to remain calm in the face of increasing heresies being taught in the chruch?
    It really bothers me that we can’t just go to church anymore and feel safe from false prophets and false teachers. One always has to have their spiritual eyes and ears open and to be watchful at all times so no one sneaks a small false teaching in and another in there.
    It seems like every stranger is a potential carrier of lies like the new apostolic reformation lie.

  • donna

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    BL
    The blog I was referring too where they support andrew strom is pjmiller. wordpress .com – they also link to Early church fathers that links to links on the Blessed virgin Mary etc. When I asked about this too my comment was deleted. Also some other strange stuff on PJMillers site.
    The other blog I will write a full article on as I need to get the article from their website with my comment and show it to the world and then apologise for being a CHOP! I tried to retract my comment by apologising there publicly and they deleted it, so they leave me no choice but to apologise here. Their mistake.

    Hi Deb, again one more place where I see you apologizing. That makes me confident in speaking to you knowing that you don’t think you’re always right. This comment is after the koran burning rant for which I left you an apology.
    Here again I will apologize and hopefully you will get one or another from different comments sections increasing my odds that you got the apology.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    donna

    My goodness I admit I am wrong often. I make plenty mistakes. And some of them are because I am foolish, other are because… I lack knowledge…. others are because I am just foolish (oh I already mentioned that). lol

    I understand how you feel. And as the weeks progress it seems you need to grow eyes out the back of your head when it comes to discerning what’s what and who’s who in the zoo. The church has been taken over – The Bible said this would happen – there ain’t anything we can do about this, except WARN people. Burning books will make us look more like nutcases than anything else, that is why I refrain from that. Believe me there is a “Christian” bookstore here in South Africa that deserves to have ever book in it shredded, but you can’t do it.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    donna

    Go it, and I understand, don’t worry :)

  • Louise

    ELIZABETH WRIGHT wrote:

    My son ran off with Andrews group and said he could have nothing to do with us because we were materialistic…Andrew Strom is a pied piper youth pastor who wants no Adults in his ministry because they are a threat! My son has since left the group and we are waiting for him to come full circle…we still see lingering false beliefs…

    sorry but I seriously do see this as a load of rubbish! He is not a ‘pied piper’ youth pastor etc….We are so materialistic!! It says in the Bible: “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me.” Mark 8:34 – JESUS CHRIST says this! He wants us to give up everything and follow Him! He wants us to FULLY RELY ON GOD! It says in Romans 8:5 “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.” I reckon yes we can have material possessions, but I do believe that we shouldn’t have such a strong grasp on worldly possessions because in God’s terms, really what value do they have? I haven’t listened to too many of Andrew’s teachings but I have never heard him say that you can have nothing to do with other people because they are too materialistic!!!

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Louise

    He is a PIED PIPER. And how dare you tell Elizabeth that HER EXPERIENCE IS FALSE. Where you there? Based on what I know about Andrew Strom I would lay my head on a block that she is telling the truth.

    Keep your little comments to yourself.

  • louise

    My prayer to GOD is,

    Thank you Oh lord that I follow no man, no earthly pastor, no rich organisation but that I lean and wait upon only you. You are my GOD and you know all my needs and supply them. I thank you and love you. I hide myself in you Oh Lord and I take no cares of this world but care only for your word.
    Thank you that you called me out of Rhema and the church and thank you that you deal with me on a minute by minute basics. To you I cry out and say call them all out of her (the false religions) and those who wont listen deal with them in a harsh way in order for them to listen to you.
    They have become church bench warmers and they flirt with Satan as they busy themselves indulging in their lustful ways, groping for earthly wealth. How feedle they are as they fight and bicker about their pastors when all that energy could be used in reading your word and worshipping you every day not just on a Sunday as they all do.
    I thank you GOD for sending JESUS to die for me for them though they do not understand the cross cos if they did they would stop protecting their pastors as they do.
    AMEN.

  • mike doti

    I suggest that you folks read your bible. Jesus himself warned us of this day to come. When you have people rolling on the floor and laughing. Body jerking out of their chairs while their faces contort. People being held to the floor and able to get up, people saying that they feel drunk when the bible clearly says to be of a sober mind. Satan is alive and well in the church. Repent and deny satan and he will flee wake church you ar undera cursed doctrine according to what the Holy Word Of God says

  • Francois

    Ok I tried reading and understanding this discussion but i don’t get this Calvinist stuff or non Calvinist stuff. Personally I am staying out of any church or organisation, avoiding the burning coal theory. Seems you can trust no one. Not even you guys who remind me of the scribes Jesus met. But I get your points as well. Sometimes. Think I will just fall to my knees and say God help me! Seems I need a degree to enter heaven, to be your son. No God I have what I need and that is faith in your Son Jesus Christ. Nothing more I can ad. I am the whore, the tax collector, the child. Please help me. I want the label of child of God trough faith in Christ but just for interest sake. How do you label me. Calvinist or not?
    K I am often one of the worst sinners as well. Obvious sins…I smoke, I used to drink too much but given up on that, I judge, I become sad, I lie etc., in my heart I am / was at times a murderer. (just wishing someone dead lol!) don’t send the police. I try and be good and repent and change. I would label myself a repentant sinner but If I need a degree or perfect lifestyle to enter heaven I am not interested in God.Because woe the day I think I can be more or less good enough for God. I have what I need already and that is faith in Christ.

    I have been to many churches and many websites and read many books including the Bible.

    I am too lazy to study scripture in order to quote exact verses. Does that exclude someone from salvation?

    Church and organised religion and these debates just totally suck. I am tired. I am 39 and when I was 5 I asked dear Jesus to come live in my heart and to forgive my sins. It was a personal prayer so I believe it was geniune. I never told Christ to go but at times I have been the worst sinner.

    I don’t believe one can slip into and out of salvation that easily. Either you believe Jesus is the Son of God or you don’t. It is a deep conviction which creates a new being which can never be killed.

    So what am I?

  • Burning Lamp

    Francois said:
    I don’t believe one can slip into and out of salvation that easily. Either you believe Jesus is the Son of God or you don’t. It is a deep conviction which creates a new being which can never be killed.
    So what am I?

    Dear lady (I assume this is the correct gender),

    The answer to your question is that you are confused. But you already know that. Thank you for being
    honest and asking an honest question. You deserve an honest answer. I am glad you came to this site because we will do all we can to help you. Thankfully you are not confused with your statement above-this is true. That is an excellent place to start!!

    First, to help us sort things out, let’s start at the beginning. Under what circumstances were you introduced to Christ?

    At the age of 5 you may have made a sincere acceptance of Jesus, but you could not have known the full extent of that decision. If you were not properly discipled, you could not have grown to maturity as a believer. That is why the Bible says to make not only converts to Christ but disciples. When we first accept Jesus we are like babes who need milk and we need help to learn to walk.
    You have obviously come under conviction about your sins, but you have tried to overcome them in your own strength and have become weary and discouraged. You are in a rut and that is a miserable place to be.

    Forget all the books other than the Bible and the many websites. Start with the basics of the faith. You need clarity and only God and His Word can provide this along with someone to help you rightly divide the Word. You don’t need some degree and it is the Holy Spirit who is your teacher.

    Please come back here and dialogue with us so we can help you. The Lord wants to give you victory over sinful habits, but you need to be grounded in the basics of the faith and sound doctrine. Forget about all the other stuff for now. Go back to the beginning and start over. Get out of that vicious cycle you now find yourself. There is hope and God has not given up on you!

  • Burning Lamp

    Deborah, somehow I ahve lost my avatar, probably because I changed my e-mail address. Do you know how I can get it back?

    [EDITED by DTW: I put back you old email address. What you need to do is go to http://www.gravatar.com and link your new email adddress to your old picture]

  • Francesca

    I am sorry to disagree with most of you but there is a deceiving and familiar spirit that is operating in the church today. I attended a prophetic conference with renowned prophets and let me tell you. The Holy Spirit set off a BIG ALARM!! He showed my husband and I the big deception that these men have brought into the church and they have to be exposed!!! They have so infiltrated the church that the children cannot discern what is of God and what is of the enemy. These manifestations ARE NOT OF GOD!!!

    Truly we are in the last days- Matt 24:23-25 is happening among the church. The enemy is deceiving the body and even renowned men of God. Many well known so called prophets are teaching of a healing angel. Totally demonic and a familiar spirit operating within the church. The Holy Spirit does not cause you to act like an animal or cause you to shake uncontrollably. We have control over our bodies. The scripture says that the Spirit is subject to the body. Father have mercy on Your people!! We must be in continual prayer and fasting. The body of Christ is in such need of discernment. Father, open the eyes of Your children and give them keen discernment so that they may not be misled or deceived during these trying times.

    The time is come, the time is at hand for the Church to STAND with boldness in the Spirit of Elijah and wherever our feet shall tread upon is HOLY GROUND! We bring the presence and Glory of God wherever we go!! Time to bring down fire from Heaven to destroy the works of the enemy, tearing down the kingdom of darkness and establishing the Kingdom of our God!

    It is time for the church to be a church that turns over the tables of the moneychangers. We need to be as radical as Jesus was and stand for what is righteous, true and holy!!

    It is time for the church to be the CHURCH and kill the entertainment spirit and tickling the ears. We should come together not with a “what’s in it for me” attitude and worrying about the carnal “Sunday Fashion Show”, but to gather together in spirit and truth to minister unto our God.

    We must take a stand for what is righteous, holy and true and get back to a No Compromise, Zero Tolerance, No Apologies and destroy the Status Quo. The time is at hand – there is a lost and dying world that needs to know the Love of the Father and come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior. For the true spirit of God to prevail within the Body of Christ. We have the answer for all of life’s questions and his name is Jesus!!

  • wane anaru

    [DELETED]

  • Traveler

    I have been thinking about this guy for quite a while now, yes he is going off the rails but the sad part is that he is not the only one. It would be nice to be able to have a voice on his sites and point out some obvious facts but they keep blocking and banning anyone who pushes scripture over doctrine. Unfortunately as their numbers drop so they also try to compromise so as to include more but opposing viewpoints obviously have to be discussed and again this leads them to blocking posters. Calls for love people and forgiveness etc constantly go out but with the offended party cut off from communication there is obviously not going to be much reconciliation going on.

    Its a pity but like a lot of misplaced ministries I see this one going by the wayside as things get harder.

  • Derek Hale

    PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE continue in your God given work by exposing Andrew STROM.
    I have recently been ejected from his JBTV forum site.

    No hard feelings.I made a mess of things with my manner when commenting against ignorance and souls being led astray on the site.

    Andrew rules HIS site with a rod of iron and will not accept any opposing views on anything.He seems to see the purpose of the site as a God given forum to teach others and bring them to His understandings.

    It is as though Andrew believes he can walk on water and cannot be wrong.

    I have described him on the site as a Pharisee and I maintain that this is what he is.He is appalled at such a suggestion,in true Pharisee style.

    I was booted out.I am deeply concerned for the souls who contribute to this site. They hang on his every word.He rarely ventures onto the forum and when he does it is to exercise his authority.Most of the contributors revere him.

    Just two days ago moves were made on site under his direction to have another member booted out.This other member is much more in touch with the Spirit Fruits than I and he brings amazing understanding and insight to the forum.

    I am tempted to say it is sad but sad is not the correct word.It is wicked and clearly a spirit that is not of God.

  • Ray

    [deleted because you don’t have one nice word to say]

  • Elmarie wrote:

    3. Universal, divine, determinism makes God the author of sin and precludes human responsibility. In contrast to the Molinist view, on the deterministic view even the movement of the human will is caused by God. God moves people to choose evil, and they cannot do otherwise. God determines their choices and makes them do wrong. If it is evil to make another person do wrong, then on this view God is not only the cause of sin and evil, but becomes evil Himself, which is absurd. By the same token, all human responsibility for sin has been removed. For our choices are not really up to us: God causes us to make them. We cannot be responsible for our actions, for nothing we think or do is up to us.</

    Where in he Bible does it say that "God moves people to choose evil?".

  • peggy

    I thought that all people who belong to Jesus should be correcting each other in love. This fighting and feuding causes some to stumble. Tell me-is Andrew’s first priority one of getting people saved? I see Andrew talk’s good about David Wilkerson. That is a plus in my eyes. The church has been focusing on the gifts instead of the giver. I heard Carter Conlon giving his thoughts on Wilkerson at his memorial. He said he only saw David one time dancing in the spirit and he didnt know he was being seen. None of us will ever have all the answers but we need to hear how to make it in these days we are in.

  • Dirk

    True, or false?
    Does it matter?
    Doesn`t God`s word tell us not to judge?
    Everyone will be judged, by God.
    Only he can see into our hearts, only he knows true from false.
    And so, it does not matter.
    Everyone should stay true to God`s word.
    Do we realy need to follow any human?
    I don`t think we should.
    Follow God`s word.
    Only through God`s words of truth can we find salvation.
    I`ld like to point out that God`s witnesses will be ridiculed.
    So who is to say, that not all of you are making these words come true by doing just that?
    (and no, i don`t say that Andrew Strom is God`s witness, nor do i say he is not!).
    Stay true to God, and follow no human, and it will be impossible for anyone to deceive you!
    I don`t know Andrew Strom, which is fine.
    I follow Jesus Christ alone,.
    For only He can lead us to God!

    Just a thaught…

    Kind regards, Dirk

  • Robbie

    The topic is on here Dirk.
    Enlighten yourself – this is the heading:

    as-christians-we-must-judge-righteously

  • mandy

    Sorry about this but i accidently wandered onto your site, i have just come out of organised religion, backround of pentecostal then evangelical. im reading all this stuff, and im thinking gosh where do i go, where is safe.
    i have had enough of what goes on inside churches, just doesn’t fit what Jesus taught any more. i have had enough, but yet yearn to be with fellow christians, but have recently found out i have been shunned by my ex church goers, now im out in the cold. Sorry if this appears like a random message.
    mandy

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    mandy

    You are not alone, many many GENUINE Christians have left their churches because the church is now completely false. And there is no where to go. There are little gems out there still preaching the truth, but are they in your area? Who knows. You can try go from church to church seeking out these little gems, but I can’t guarantee you will find them. I know I haven’t and I have looked. Every now and then my husband takes me church hunting and we come back home tired, drained of energy (because you have to give the pastor a once over on what they believe) and you think to yourself afterwards, ‘why did I waste my time’. I know of many great Christians BUT they do not live anywhere near where I live, so it’s impossible to fellowship with them, except over the phone or via the internet. And my teacher is not a man aka pastor but the Holy Spirit – what better teacher than that can you get? He never lies, and He leads me into TRUTH all the time :) When I get stuck on issues, I have certain people I communicate with and ask questions regarding Theology. So good luck in the church hopping :) but rest assured Mandy that the Holy Spirit would want you to stay at home with Him instead. We are in the last of the last days, fellowship is going to be very hard to come by.

  • Dion

    Dear Mandy,
    I was touched by your comments and just like Deborah and a few others, I try and help people find the right place to worship for those who really serach for it. If you wish you should contact me via e-mail when I shall do my utmost to be of assistance in this regard. In the mean time, keep in touch with Deborah and this site as this will help you get to know more about discernment and the need for it in this fallen world where the job of truly Biblical Christians is to spread God’s word as much as it is to admonish and aid others. I’ll pray for you and I know others will also! Do not give up my friend; do not throw in the towel! Go the full distance; run the race and aim to finish it. Stay on the narrow road; press on and do not give up! He will give you the strength to carry on! He will help you through your search! He will help you endure to the very end! Only in Him can you do it! Hang in there and stay on your knees! God bless.

  • marj

    [deleted – I am sorry that you are a Calvinist, but that gives you no right to come and insult me because I expose false teaching, including the doctrine of Calvinism]

  • standingontheWordofGod

    Andrew Strom has profaned the written word of God. People MUST WAKE UP QUICKLY
    AND QUIT FOLLOWING THESE FALSE RELIGIOUS LEADERS! God bless you for standing against the false. The Lord has shown me that He has sent few in that would go in the Name of Jesus to these false apostate forums
    to weaken their man made structures. Those with eyes to see will see and come out, most are shut down and Praise God for that!

  • Bryan K. Pfister

    [deleted – stick to the topic – this is not ad space to spread Calvinistic doctrine]

  • Bryan K. Pfister

    [deleted – stick to the topic – this is not ad space to spread Calvinistic doctrine]

  • Laura Reid

    Grant C wrote:

    Hyper-Calvinism or the form of Calvinism as resultant from the Synod of Dort, in their attempt to refute the points of Arminius (Calvin’s would be successor, scholar and later doctrinal opponent), is obviously fraught with error. (TULIP) was integral to this pronouncement and probably the best interpretation they could give at the time, while they considered their options and their commission to refute all of Arminius’ doctrines.

    The absolute opposite of Calvinism is an even more dangerous, divisive and erroneous position. The protagonists of extreme anti-Calvinistic exegesis, in attempts to categorically overthrow Calvinism in it’s entirety, have been instrumental in the creation of the plethora of protestant alternatives, each with their own concoction of doctrines. Some more correct than others, but mostly all guilty of an attitude of “anything but Calvinism”, even if the Calvinistic point or portion is Biblically correct.

    Here Ian Armstrong makes a case in point, although the truth is somewhat other than what (I think) he believes:

    If I had known these things earlier in my walk with Christ, I would have avoided the errors of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement.

    Here again, Ian comes close to stating the truth, although again I fear he narrowly misses the truth:

    No other body of teaching adequately explains salvation by grace alone and revelation through the Bible alone.

    Ian is partially correct in stating that no other body of teaching attempts to adequately explain the Biblical position as effectively. I certainly believe that the purveyors of the truth in the church have failed in as much as not providing this truth as effectively to the seeker. Thereby those, who could effectively refute the errors of Calvinism, have allowed the far more ludicrous and deadly anti-scriptural interpretors, almost free reign.

    One of the severe negatives resulting from the (TULIP) doctrine is that it certainly creates a bouncing ball for the seeker in trying to ‘catch’ the Biblical position on salvation by grace. Partly because Calvin comes close, but leaves the wrong impression when incorrectly understood. Or should that be, when correctly understood? See how that ball bounces…

    Another odd influence an unhealthy interest in Calvinism and it’s false opposites seem to exert, is the uncanny ability they have to draw the believer back into this type of discussion. In this regard it certainly has enjoyed enormous over-exposure, sowing doubt and confusion and destroying the peace within many true believers.

    It would be far simpler IF one could erase the short period of time and events surrounding Calvin, Arminius and the Reformation. Seeing that this is an impossibility, the next best option might be to ignore those events and teachings and rewind to the Biblical truth which has always been with us.

    This would certainly negate the perceived necessity and urgency for many of our gifted biblical scholars to devote precious time attempting to refute that which many other of our equally gifted biblical scholars are attempting to protect. Absurdities. The true church certainly was never in need of added doctrine, or extra-biblical wisdom. Alas, Satan disagrees and grasps every opportunity to create confusion and diversions wherever possible.

    I recently heard a remarkable answer to the question of whether a particular preacher was a five point Calvinist. He stated that he certainly held to the belief that the five solas are correct. (These are of course, Scripture alone as a measure of the truth and that salvation is by Grace alone, by Faith alone, in Christ alone, for the Glory of God alone). He continued to say that if his belief in the five solas, and his belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, made him a five point Calvinist or a five point Arminian, in the mind of the person posing the question, then yes, he was just that.

    My advice, for what it may be worth, to believers struggling with this issue, is to approach your Bible study in this regard with much prayer. Don’t start with the preconceived idea of wanting to prove or refute Calvinism or any other extra-biblical doctrine; ignore them entirely, they are unnecessary. The Truth is in the Bible, that much we know. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, true believers cannot but find that Truth.

    How wonderfully spoken! Such a healthy and Christian approach. That’s it exactly, your last paragraph says it all. And the last two sentences have kept me in the Way, all these 40 years!

  • Redeemed

    Laura, I have to respectfully disagree. I find the advice given as a smokescreen. I believe that in order to refute wrong doctrine we must replace it with sound doctrine. Wrong doctrine is a result of wrongly dividing the Word of God and in order to counter it we must rightly divide the Word.

    False doctrine must be hit head on with truth and answered point by point with the Word.

    You are right, that we need to put aside preconceived ideas and be open to what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us. But when the Spirit prompts us as we test the spirits that something is wrong and a little red flag goes up, we need to dig into God’s Word and seek His truth regarding the specifics of that matter.

    Certainly the Bible exhorts us to study to show ourselves approved as a regular practice so we can arm ourselves with the truth and recognize error when it presents itself.

  • Carm

    Aaah Mr Andrew Strom, I wrote my best-ever Amazon book review on his literary classic “The Out-of-Church Christians” – a one-star rating, entitled “Twaddle”.

    I also elaborated my review in the comments on another lady’s 3 star review of the same book entitled “Re ‘Twaddle'” – which proved to not be a review of the book at all.

    In my response to the dear lady, I included
    “…why I questioned the approach followed by the author in this book: to formulate a hypothesis and come to a conclusion, that is not scripturally grounded but a conglomeration of people’s feelings, impressions, visions, dreams… i.e. the wisdom of man based on personal experience – a way that seems right to them.”

    “to substantiate his argument, he mentions the prophesies of people that he in other books discredit as being false prophets.”

    I think the last phrase just about sums up Mr Strom.

    That book was recycled somewhere in China… hopefully into something useful like toiletpaper.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Laura Reid

    This guy, Grant C is actually a full blown Calvinists – all 5 points, and if there was a 6th point he was jump at it too. I would not take anything he has to say as valuable. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He speaks about the Holy Spirit, but he has never been regenerated and SAVED by grace, because Grant believes he was elected by God before birth, all Grant had to do was accept this idea to form his version of salvation; that Jesus died for the Elect only and not the whole world as the BIBLE claims.

  • redeemed

    Laura, I echo Deborah’s comments. Calvinists’ remarks come close to hitting the mark and are very deceptive, but they miss because they are based on a basic false doctrine starting with the perversion of the Gospel. If you don’t have that right, you ain’t goin’ nowhere near the truth.

  • Hanelie

    I’m sorry, but I cannot see what there is to laugh about. Should we not – rather – weep over the state of the bride, over the deception, over what the enemy is stealing and destroying, as Nehemiah did over Jerusalem’s walls?

  • Patricia Abel

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    Burning Lamp

    Yeah I should have said, ‘cry’ instead of laugh. But I’ve run out of tears.

    What amazes me is that there are MANY websites who exposed WoF and NAR and when Andrew Strom said he no longer supported them then they all jumped for joy and now support him. So I went and looked for a common denominator on these websites – they are Calvinists. What shocked me more is that I used to be able to comment on these websites back in the day. When I tried to tell them about Andrew Strom and tried to explain the Transformations movement to them my comments were deleted. Could not even get 1 comment on there. 1 comment would have been fair.

    I then received a nice email from one of the blog owners who I used to respect telling me. ‘Sorry for deleting your comment, I just felt I had to do what I had to do’. Okaayy then… whatever that means. Obviously trying to cover up what they ‘really’ follow.

    So what were these so called discernment blogs really against? Prosperity. They had no clue about Transformation and don’t want to know about it because they can’t see how ‘being nice to someone and sharing’ is bad. When it’s not about that – it’s about the underlying false doctrine that accompanies it.

    That reminds me. There is a blog I used to comment on a lot that I need to speak against now. I have been convicted for a long time by the Holy Spirit about this, and the only reason I have not done it, is because I am embarrassed to say I was caught by the owner of this website because I WANTED TO BELIEVE they were legit. See, what I ‘thought’ and what God was telling me all the time were 2 different things. Oh boy… can you see why I have run out of tears? lol What a disaster.

  • Patricia Abel

    You didn’t name the website. Shalom, Patricia

  • Billy

    Good Ol Andy,

    I think I was getting banned on an average of about 4 or 5 times a month when he was running revivalschool. He trips from one false doctrine into another on a seasonal basis. I do think the guy has am heart after God and wants to win souls but it is all works of the flesh. Deep deep deeeeeeeeeeep repentance is his key. You gotta be smashed up, beaten down, crushed to have God work through you. I have been out of churches for years, the ones that didn’t throw me out I left. I am a stiff necked, rebellious, unteachable , unfruited, objectionable sort of bloke who relies on what Jesus done at Calvary to get me through every moment of every day. I know what I was saved from and I know who I am saved too and for. I couldn’t give a peppercorn what folks think of me, but I love em all. I also couldn’t care less what a couple of old dead theologians views are. They didn’t die for me. What I care about is folks who don’t have a hope in hell but have every hope if they will forget about themselves and take up His death and Resurrection and follow Him. Can I lose my Salvation, not a chance, like I said I know what I was saved from and I know that the life of the Cross is the most wonderful, joyful, exuberant and abundant life I have ever known. I’m not insane enough to think I could walk away from the best in life, even for a second, even better I don’t deserve this life but I got it given to me by someone who loves me better than I love myself and I know He can be trusted. Better even still is He knows me, accepts me just as I am and He has done a lot of work in this ol fella to keep me on the straight and narrow and has actually made some big changes in my habits and thinking. What I’m saying is I got the proof of the pudding by what He has done. As to the others, all I can do is try and point to the one who done all the work in me, some folk don’t like the idea and get into religion and churches. I smile to myself and let em go. If they get their ears tickled for a while with what they want to hear, it isn’t my problem. Sooner or later they will learn just like me. I don’t blame the sheep in wolves clothing anymore, they will get their just desserts. ( hopefully not scones through a fax). Some folks just don’t want to listen to whats good for them until they get softened up a bit by church and religion. I’m tempted at times to tell em I told you so but I resist, give em a big hug and sit em down and start again. Most of the poor sods have had such a beating they got all the sense knocked out of them and then the Holy Ghost can get in there and teach em the right stuff. I havent seen him fail yet and I don’t expect I ever will. I know a fair bit about Bible, doctrines, false doctrines and religion but it never done me any good unless it worked for me and it does and it has. I fight for the life of the Cross like a pit bull because I know it is the only solution I can find in the Bible for every single problem a man, woman or child has. Your doing a great job here on this site, it brings back memories of my life a few years back, to be honest I love a good fight and its great to be on the winning side. I don’t envy you your task but your doing it well. Keep up the good work. Love to you all.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    Billy

    That was a fantastic comment, thank you and I love you too :) *hugs*

  • South-African

    Andrew Strom is not as blind as everyone would assume. Also Angus Buchan is anything but preaching Socialism. There has been a great revival in South-Africa among Afrikaners and black South-Africans. I am sorry for Andrew being persecuted for reaching out, I do think that his motives are pure and he does not mix up political ideas with godly matters.

    What I noted from him is that he showed discernment on matters that are truly important, like exposing Hindu Shakti-Pat and Kundalini practices in so called Christian revival movements and services. How blind can some people be to think that they have the light, yet they themselves dwell in darkness. Andrew, continue the good work – people like you may help South-Africa recover from the Powers and Principalities that are oppressing Christians and masquerade in ideologies and angered misdirected wrath against innocent people.

  • South African wrote:

    Andrew Strom is not as blind as everyone would assume. Also Angus Buchan is anything but preaching Socialism. There has been a great revival in South-Africa among Afrikaners and black South-Africans. I am sorry for Andrew being persecuted for reaching out, I do think that his motives are pure and he does not mix up political ideas with godly matters.

    Really?? A revival in South Africa, South African?? You must be kidding.Pure motives do not determine the purity of your doctrines. It means nothing.

  • Deborah (Discerning the World)

    South Africa

    SA is having a Revival?? WHERE?? Among Black and White?? WHERE?? This I got to see… show us where??

    Are you a Roman Catholic? Because Andre Strom is – See here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2013/06/21/andrew-strom-and-j-lee-grady-false-teachers-waiting-for-the-spiritual-revival-of-the-roman-catholic-church/ So is Angus Buchan – See here: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/12/20/angus-buchan-and-the-roman-catholic-reconciliation/

    Maybe you are speaking about a ROMAN CATHOLIC REVIVAL?

  • hanelie

    Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:

    South Africa

    SA is having a Revival?? WHERE?? Among Black and White?? WHERE?? This I got to see… show us where??

    Not going to call it a revival just yet, but we are seeing an amazing work of the Holy Spirit in schools and and in the hearts of school children, across race, age and all sorts of other divides since the beginning of this year. What is especially encouraging is the collective answer to the call to prayer.

    I, however, believe (based on 2 Chron 7:14) that we won’t see real revival – big or small (or in our own hearts) – until we are ready for the Holy Spirit to call us to repentance (turning from their wicked ways), and allow Him to search and clean our [deceptive above all things] hearts …

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