A while ago I went to watch Ron Martoia an Emergent “Transformational Architecture Specialist” at a Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa. The title of the seminar was the ‘Vertical Development and a Spirituality of Awareness’. Ron Martoia spoke about Logos and Mythos. In order to transcend vertically ↑ (up the Tree of Life and see through God’s eyes) you need to ← move away from the Word (Logos) and → experience (Mythos) God instead. If you are stuck in the Word (Logos) you end up ↓ stagnating and you spiritually dry up.
[DTW notes in green below]
Chase The Wave Maker
by Louie Giglio - 5/7/2001
I’d like to take you back to my college days – to my first journey to Mt Rainier. Having furiously studied the mountain in my geography class, I couldn’t wait until the day Rainier appeared on our agenda as my friend and I drove across North America.
We were headed for an amazing mountain, a place I had come to know quite well – or so I thought. Though I lived 3,000 miles away in Atlanta, and had never seen Rainier in person, I was foolish enough to believe I was an expert on this mountain because I’d mastered the information required in my geography lab.
Being a ‘map freak’, I was really into this assignment and eventually aced the test on Rainier in a big way! In fact, I was totally disappointed in the test because it didn’t even scratch the surface of what I’d learned about this 14,221-foot, snow-covered, volcanic cone.
Frustrated, I turned my completed exam over and wrote on the top of the back page, ‘Things I know about Rainier that were not asked on this test’! I proceeded to write on every blank space available.
Thinking I really knew Rainier, I was completely caught off guard when I finally stood before this majestic giant. I’d planned all along to impress my friend with the information I’d learned, but was shocked instead, and stunned in silence.
Mysteriously, I was reduced to tears and robbed of speech.
“I learned that day there’s a huge difference between information and experience. I knew so much about Rainier, but I didn’t know Rainier. The same is true in our relationship with God.” [Emphasis added]
[DTW note: In other words what Giglio is saying is that there is a HUGE difference between the Word of God (logos) and actually experiencing God (mythos). You can know the Word of God well, but that does not mean you know God. The problem with this statement is that, IF YOU ARE SAVED YOU KNOW WHO JESUS CHRIST IS. Because The Word of God is Jesus Christ - you CAN NOT separate the one from the other. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives understanding of Scripture. If a person is not saved then the Word of God will be meaningless in their lives and will most definitely seek other alternatives / paths to experience God.]
John 1: 1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1: 14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
It’s not enough to simply have our heads filled up with facts about him. God wants us to experience him at the deepest levels of our souls. [Emphasis added]
[DTW note: Giglio is saying that it's not enough to have your head filled up with facts about God through His Word. God wants us to experience Him instead at the deepest levels of our soul. And how do we do this? Through contemplative spirituality. If it was not so, Louie Giglio would know that he did not need this "experience at the deepest levels of our soul" as we have the Holy Spirit abiding is us when we are genuinely saved.]
John 14:16-27
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world sees me no more; but you see me: because I live, you shall live also. 20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas said to him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stayed with him. 24 He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken to you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 16:13-25
13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you.
1 John 2:26-27
26 These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which you have received of him stays in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.]
God longs for us to come to the place where our experience of him transcends information and we see him as he truly is. In such a moment, we instantly know two things are true: [Emphasis added]
[DTW note: What a load of rubbish. Where is this in the Bible? No where. God longs for us to come to genuine repentance through His Son Jesus Christ whereby His Holy Spirit comes to abide in us. He longs that we may not perish due to disobedience and not keeping His commandments - His Word. He longs that we are born again, made new, washed spotless by the blood of Jesus Christ. Transcending information means that we transcend the Word of God. And Jesus Christ is the Word made Flesh. This means we transcend Jesus Christ. This Giglio talk is thoroughbred New Age Spirituality.]
- we know God is vaster than our wildest imagination,
- we know that the very reason we exist is to explore his infinite greatness. [Emphasis added]
[DTW note: We don't need some "transcending experience" to know that God is vaster than our wildest imagination because He says so in His Word, and the Bible confirms itself. The Holy Spirit that abides in genuinely saved Christians confirms it too as He leads us into all truth. (See scripture I mentioned above). And last but not least we were not created and we do not exist to explore God's greatness (universe, creation) within the deepest levels of our soul - this is pantheism. We exist to WORSHIP HIM and HIM ONLY.]
Source: http://www.worshiptogether.com/resources/article.aspx?iid=218129
Part 2 coming soon to a DVD near you.
So sad that this wonderful man is also falling for the emerging movement lies.
Great men will fall indeed!!
Hmmm You guys read far too much into what he is saying….
When I read this my first impression was that he is trying to get people away from an intellectual understanding of the Word of God and into a personal relationship with Him.
Of course that personal relationship cannot be outside the Word of God, but it is true that you can learn all about Jesus, God The Father and God the Holy Ghost and never really know them personally. We have to have a one on one relationship with our heavenly Father, through His Son, Jesus Christ, by the revelation of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost reveals Jesus to us (per the scriptures mentioned above)and if we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father.
I get that it is not biblical to look for experience beyond the Word of God, some kind of mystical draw down from the spirit realm that may or my not accord with the Word of God, but real Christianity must be experienced in our spirits otherwise we will just have an intellectual relationship with God and in reality that is no relationship at all. In fact we’re then walking in death because the letter kills but the spirit gives life
Of course our experience must be one that is by Faith, and in the will of God (ie according to the Word of God), but it must still be experienced by us -otherwise we are in a lifeless intellectual pursuit, appeasing itchy ears.
Craig
Ok, Craig, good stuff. That was so nicely said.
But there is a big difference between the peace, love, joy, and growth and yes experience when it comes to discernment and obedience and repentance of sin that is all part and parcel of having the most wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ vs the false feeling of peace, joy and love and eerie feelings and experiences that a false spirit brings.
So we are not reading too much into this. This is very serious. And people do not understand the difference. They think what what is happening and feeling is the Holy Spirit when it’s not… it’s ‘something’ else.
Being a Sci-fi fan all of my (almost 48 year)life, I can appreciate what Louie is pointing out. As vast as the universe is, God is BIGGER! I used to wish we could find life ‘out there’ and make contact. That would be so cool!! But now, as I have matured spiritually, I have come to realize that anything that takes my affection away from the Lord, and detracts my focus from being a witness of the Gospel to the world is wrong.
Psalm 19:1 Says the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament (the sky? space? the stars?) shows His handiwork, so Louie telling us God might be saying; “Come on! Build a bigger telescope! I have MORE to show you!” makse me smile.
All this being said, I AM leery of word-of-faith people. They focus on things over their Creator, and distort the Gospel, trying to add to the completed work of Christ.
John
>> I can appreciate what Louie is pointing out. As vast as the universe is, God is BIGGER!
But, that is not what Louie is really pointing out. There is another message he is tying to put across. Re-read it and go research contemplative spirituality – then come back and read all my articles on Louie.
Also see the article on Mark Driscoll (partner in preaching with Louie Giglio) who promotes Meditation and see the article on John Piper (Louie Giglio’s mentor) who is now a huge Rick Warren fan.
You are looking way to deep into this. Louie is a personal friend of mine,and I can assure you he does not believe the garbage you are claiming he does. And i have to ask, have any of you bothered to take this up with him face to face personally? If you have not then all you are doing is gossiping and you need to gain control of your tongue before it burns down the whole forest (James 3). The biblical approach to this would be to confront Louie to his face. How about you guys quit spending your time dogging other pastors and preachers, and instead focus on spreading the good news of Jesus Christ? just a thought…
*laugh* Richard, if you don’t know how to apply scripture then how can you tell what Louie really believes.
Tell me, or rather get Louie to tell you all about how his mentor John Piper is now Rick Warrens greatest fan. And while on the subject, ask Louie if he too thinks Rick Warren is just cool and then come back and let us know. Thanks
Richard, the Matthew 18 instruction pertains to the local church, not to those who have a public or international ministry. First of all, a face-to-face is not possible in most cases and it has been demonstrated over and over again that those who attempt to contact such ministries never get a response or opportunity to dialog. The only recourse is to send out a public alert.
Be assured, this blog is not about gossip or spreading false information.
RICK WARREN AND JOHN PIPER TOGETHER: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/10/15/john-piper-and-rick-warren-together-at-desiring-god-conference-2010/
JOHN PIPER IS LOUIE GIGLIO’S MENTOR
My Bible study at church yesterday included a marvelous DVD filmed in Houston which showcased Louie Giglio (of whom I’d never heard).
It was very, very deep – very thought provoking – all about the universe and its “vastness”. I was about to order copies of the DVD online after service when I got a “check” in my spirit and got a practically audible voice directing me to “google Louie Giglio and Contemplative prayer”.
His DVD was great and I’d still love to order it… but that ‘check’ I got tells me NO. No because we’ve been warned in scripture about a huge falling away in the end times – that ‘if it were possible, it would fool even the very elect’..
I loved Louie’s lesson, but emerging/contemplative/new age is a little bit too scary for me so I’ll just keep my distance and keep on reading His word.
Annunk
Do you know what is deeper and more thought provoking than Louie Giglio’s silly DVD’s? The Bible :)
Annuck, thank the Lord for that “check” in your spirit. Maybe you will also get a “check” in your spirit about the church you are attending. Whoever introduced this video needs to be informed about it to protect the other sheep who did not get that “chedk” in their spirit. Don’t keep this to yourself – ask the Lord when to speak up about this and how and to whom. But don’t be silent – that “check” wasn’t just for you – it was meant to share and protect others. Let us know what happens. And be on the alert for further errors because leaven grows.
College kids feeling passion for conference
By Steve Almasy, CNN
The Passion conference is more than just a huge gathering of college-age kids, organizers say. the recent Atlanta conference was a call for the next generation to make Jesus a focal point in their lives and to share that passion with others, they said.
“Church was never meant to be an island of self-indulgence, but a missional community of Jesus-followers so in love with Him that they can do nothing else but carry His name to the world,” pastor Louie Giglio said in an e-mail this week.
The event drew more than 22,000 students to the Georgia capital’s convention center and to Philips Arena. It was even more successful than Giglio had hoped for.
“It is truly inspiring to see a generation that is so hungry for an authentic encounter with Jesus … one that exchanges consumer-driven Christ for Christ-centered obedience,” said Giglio.
One of the main spots at the conference, a convention floor full of booths for 10 carefully selected charities that the Passion movement works with throughout the year. The call went out to the college kids to spend time at the exhibits and find one that moved them.
On a Monday night, the third of a four-day event, thousands of kids dressed in t-shirts and jeans weaved their way through the exhibits. They took brochures and enthusiastically chatted as volunteers explained what each cause was about.
The stereotype is that college kids never have much money, but these kids dug deep. Some even brought in containers filled with money they had raised or saved.
Some donated what little money they had, some brought material goods, many gave from there hearts, officials said. Every charitable goal was surpassed, not by a little but by a lot.
The goal was to raise $500,000 for the charities, but after the conference, Do Something Now, the fundraising campaign of the Passion Conferences, announced that it had raised $1.1 million for Compassion International, Hope International, Haiti Transformed, International Justice Mission, Bibles Unbound, World Made Flesh, Joint Aid Management, Cure International, Living Water International, and the Atlanta Mission and City of Refuge (kids brought socks and towels for the homeless).
Giglio says it is compelling to see 18- to 22-year-olds giving to the causes that matter most.
“The fact that 22,000 university-aged young people would journey to Atlanta and gather for the name of Jesus is staggering in and of itself,” he wrote. “But the fact that, as a result of His grace in their lives, they would pool their resources to the tune of $1.1 million to fund 10 local and global causes signifies a massive shift.”
Students got to hear from pastor John Piper, who returned from an eight-month leave of absence, Francis Chan, and Beth Moore. The students sat intently, many taking notes, writing down the references to scripture passages. Afterward, they left, so moved barely a word was uttered.
They also were treated to warm up music from Chris Tomlin and his fellow artists on the sixstepsrecords label. The resulting live album (yet to be titled) will be released March 8. Last year’s CD went to No. 1 on the Christian charts and featured the radio single “Our God.”
A second Passion event is scheduled for April 1 in Fort Worth, Texas. Tickets are still available, a spokesperson said. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/11/college-kids-feeling-passion-for-conference/
———————
Students got to hear from John Piper who was out during those 8 months making best friends with Rick Warren who is NOW doing this: http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/12/rick-warren-a-new-age-prescription-for-your-health/ WARNING!!!
Corruption of the next generation. Nice. Beth Moore, respected Bible teacher right in the thick of things. Beautiful………doing Satan’s work.
You are absolutely right to discern this about Ron Martoia. He was my pastor for about 3 years, and wow has God taught me discernment after being a part of his church. The other two pastors that came after him were teaching the same rubbish as he. He is teaching about the mystic fathers, dessert fathers, labrynths, silence, contemplative prayer..all part of the pagan religion that the catholic system brought together at Constantine’s decree. Ron Martoia is now into hinduism, yoga…meditation..the demonic influence that he gets through all of the different practices outside of the Word of God has led him completely down a different path and away from God’s truth. This man is a false teacher and I believe also a false convert because he is blind.
i stopped reading your comments after your first “note,” so all i want to comment on is what precedes that. I just recently returned from a trip to the Holy Land, where my guide was a Jew. He believes in Christ as a man and a prophet, but not as The Son of God. That man knows God’s word better that most Christians, but does not know Christ as his Savior. What are your thoughts on this because as you say “Because The Word of God is Jesus Christ – you CAN NOT separate the one from the other.”
bubba g
Yes you can’t separate them from one another. Jesus is the Word. But it still does not mean the man KNOWS JESUS CHRIST and has ACCEPTED HIM as SAVIOUR.
Bubba, don’t you know that Satan knows the Word of God very well? He quoted it to the Lord Jesus in trying to tempt Him. There is a BIG difference between being able to quote the Bible and actually taking it to heart and applying it. He has not surrendered himself to Jesus Christ and he doesn’t BELIEVE the Bible because if he did he would have to acknowledge that Jesus is God and not an ordinary man and that Jesus was raised from the dead and that Jesus paid the price for our sins. He is lost as lost can be.
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