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Deborah said to Donna:

2011/01/23 at 11:19 am
Donna

Look at what you said in your first comment? that was taking a poke at me suggesting that this article I wrote was incorrect due to the fact that I also follow Premillennialism. You said, “I realize you are trying your best to disseminate the truth, but as any of us can be off the mark at times, so can you in your efforts to help others, yet certainly not meaning to lead anyone away from the truth. For instance, just b/c you believe that there is a pre-trib rapture doesn’t mean that it bears out in the NT” {sighs} I think I am just going to not bother answering reading comments today… I don’t have time for these silly word games. If you want to take me on please do so under the correct topic!

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Donna said to Deborah

2011/01/23 at 9:34 am
Hi Deb,
My comment about the rapture was only b/c you brought it up to me.I’m finished here re any more comments about my thoughts to BL.

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Deborah said to Donna

2011/01/23 at 6:42 am | In reply to Donna.
Donna

PLEASE have this discussion under the rapture topic. http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/01/06/the-rapture-an-article-to-knock-your-socks-off/ and http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/22/the-rapture-an-article-to-blow-your-hair-back/ –

Your understanding of the premillennialism is incorrect – hence the arguments you level at the rapture are false. Understand premillennialism correctly FIRST and then tell me it’s wrong. I’ve read more than 50 different people who were postmillennial or amillennial level a charge against premillennialism and they all did not actually understand the the entire thing properly – which would make their claims seem valid – but it wasn’t. What EXACTLY do you believe? But please answer under the rapture topic.

As you can see Linda is already throwing her toys out her cot levelling all sorts of things against me because you brought up the rapture thing and now this topic will be ruined because of it.

Revelation 3:10 (Amplified Bible)

10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.

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Donna said to Burning Lamp:

2011/01/22 at 8:44 pm
From BL–”Yes, Donna, you will be caught up whether you believe or not, but there is a crown for those who await His imminent return.”

BL–
I see three crowns listed in the bible–the crown of righteousness, the crown of life, & the crown of glory.

As I understand it, the Blessed Hope is the appearing of our Lord,(nothing about any moment return). If by imminent you mean coming, nearing, approaching, yes, that’s what I believe, I just do not believe in an “any moment: return b/c of what it says in
2 Thes. 2:1-3) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let NO man deceive you by ANY means: for that day shall NOT come, except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND that MAN OF SIN be REVEALED, the son of perdition; So it looks like this falling away is evident BUT I don’t see the son of perdition REVEALED as yet.

So of course, I look forward to the appearing of the Lord b/c of the beauty of His holiness & loveliness & love, & power & pure justice, etc. & also b/c of the ugliness & wickedness of this world in which we are not citizens. Titus 2:13 –Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And here’s the crown of righteousness laid up for those who love His appearing. (no any moment return here). 2 Timothy 4:8 — Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

We know it’s for those who endure temptation & for those who love Him: James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

And here we see that we are to hold fast to that which we have so as not to lose our crown. (Nothing here about any moment return.) Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: (the meaning is suddenly) hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

So according to the vss. I’ve included here, there is nothing about receiving a crown just for those who wait for His imminent return. Now I realize that we can only write & understand so much thru the use of the computer & lots of times we have things in our minds but we don’t write them all down. Perhaps that’s what you did, BL. I just wanted to make this clear to anyone who may be reading this to go by what is written & not just some idea about the crown of life that is not written in the bible. :-) Blessings on all those who love & search for the truth.

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Linda Harris said:
2011/01/22 at 8:20 pm

Eph 4:
7BUT UNTO EVERY ONE OF US IS GIVEN GRACE ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE GIFT OF CHRIST. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN.(9,10)11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

It would stand to reason that if there are no prophets or that is if the office or ministry of a prophet were still not part of Gods gifts and plans, that then there would also be no teachers, evangelists or pastors. A prophet wasn’t simply a man that heard the message from God first hand and then spoke it to the people. But was also any man or woman who claimed to be speaking for God. This would include anyone who writes a blog or shares and teaches in anyway, that the Bible teaches so and so. You are in effect saying “Thus sayeth the Lord.

Paul goes on to state the purpose and for what “time” these ministries, gifts (whatever) will be in force.

“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: TILL (UNTIL) we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Again the purpose being) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

It is obvious by these statements, that these gift, ministries (whatever)would be in force until the body of Christ, that was foretold to fall away or apostasize from the truth, would RECOVER the truth, and grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, where they would so hold to the truth, that they would be able to discern rightly who truly spoke for God and who didn’t. OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE NOT COME TO THAT TIME YET! However we do see a great falling out of and away from the false gospel of the last 2000 years, individuals who are seeing and renoucing false doctrines, and seeking the truth. At the same time we are also seeing lying signs and wonders beginning in the Church. The “experiences” of these people are real, just not from the real one and true God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ. And are simply a last ditch effort for Satan to hold on to as many people as he can, as the saints come out of her, and rediscover the original understanding of the original gospel.

This will not happen until all of the false ideas and concepts developed in the church in the last 2000 years are finally seen and renouced, and God’s children are walking in the same knowledge and understanding of scripture they had in the first century. However as they attempt to come out of this deception, there are still many “liers in wait”, many who claim to have come out themselves, but are yet holding to many docternal errors, can catching them coming out, and leading them back into the same old errors.

Why is PERFECT docternal accuracy and understanding regarding everything Jesus said IMPORTANT?

2 Cor 11
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The absolute truth and understanding of the original gospel is vital in that any varriation whatsoever brings with it ANOTHER SPIRIT. Remember Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS who had already believed in Christ, and already we know received the holy spirit. Yet, even so, by not holding on to the truth they were taught AS IT WAS TAUGHT, meaning the understanding of that truth, not just quoted scriptures (which can be and are taken out of context to present a false image), they would if they received another understanding, also receive ANOTHER SPIRIT. Again EVEN AFTER THEY HAD RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

This is why having and holding on to a perfect understanding and knowledge of the truth as it was taught and understood by Jesus and the apostels if VITAL, for this is what keeps a person CLEAN from that UN-HOLY spirit, one receives when one is indoctrinated into another gospel.

Paul continues his “prophecy” to the Ehpesians, which in reality simply fortells what is, what was, and what is foretold to eventually come to pass, God’s people would loose the truth, soon even before the death of the original apostles, and recover it once again, right towards the end of the age. Whereas they had the truth and lost it, many centuries later God’s deceived children who were in bondage to error, would come out of it, discover the original truth and manage to HOLD onto it long enough for the Lord to return and rescue them from the coming “wrath”.

“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: TILL (UNTIL) we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Again the purpose being) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking (the Gk word has the direct meaning of HOLDING ON TO, and thus them speaking) the truth, in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This is the wise virgin he’s coming for, not those to whome God allows a strong delusion, because they received not a love of the truth. So yes TRUTH or DOCTRINE DOES MATTER. But does that mean that all those left are damned? No but they will not be saved from what is called the “hour of trial”.

Rev 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Now if you want to believe that this means you get out of here before the tribulation mentioned in the very first part of Rev. i.e. the 4 horsemen, then that’s up to you, all I know is that Jesus said “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the tribulation of those days, would be when he sent his angels to gather his elect together. Beginning his endtime discourse in Matt 25 with “TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU,” referring to mens teachings about eshcatology or endtime events. and he ended with the story of the 5 wise virgins and the 5 foolish virgins, 5 taken and 5 left for that hour of temptation, which according to his teaching on those times, begins after the time of great tribulation. So do end time doctrines and beliefs matter? I would say so, since not to truly understand and know the truth, simply means you have more of a love of your pet doctrine that you do for the truth, making you a foolish virgin.

So are there prophets today? No, not yet. There are not prophets of God, because God’s children have not as yet recovered the original understanding of Jesus teachings. When they read the bible they read all the false doctrines they have been taught by both the Church and “another spirit” they received when they were indoctrinated into these things. But are there prophets today? Again, no not until the saints recover the understanding of the gospel AKA THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS.

Rev. 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

Truth is that most Christians really do not know or follow the testimony of Jesus, which is now contained in the writings of gospels. Hence without holding strong to, understanding and doing those words which Jesus said “ARE SPIRIT”, they have no true light, and no spirit working in them to the degree that they could prophesy. Hence even though they may not all be prophets per say, they would still have to be able to “prophesy” to eventually if it were God’s will walk into the office of a prophet.

It is through the office of an apostle/prophet that most of the mighty works, signs, miricles, wonders, healings took place. These were specifically allowed by God for one main purpose to CONFIRM THE TRUTH that they were teaching. But today since God’s saints do not hold the truth (YET), God will not back up the lies they believe with genuine supernatural acts. Hence pretty much what we are getting is counterfeit demon manifestations claiming to be the holy spirit.

True prophecy is simply the holy spirit bringing to your remembrance the word of God, that you have already put in your mind and heart, in order to produce the following effect.

1 Cor 14:24
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

God knows exactly what any individual has to hear to believe in him. Ultimately this is what prophecy was for, as well as edification, exortation and comfort. Prophecy is simply the word being brought forth through devine inspiration of the holy spirit within you. But it can only take place if you have been taught the truth, and hold to and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is simply one aspect of what the holy spirit actually does.

Best Regards,

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Burning Lamp said to Donna

2011/01/21 at 4:30 pm
Donna, just because someone doesn’t believe in the pre-trib, they are not excluded. One’s eschatology has nothing to do with one’s salvation or qualification for the Rapture. It is just that when one believes in the Blessed Hope of the pre-trib that it is a huge comfort in the midst of this crazy world and all its disappointments and trials. It is the expectation of His imminent return that is a purifying factor as well.

The Rapture will occur at the end of the Church Age and then all hell will break loose. How is this possible with the Church on the earth? The Bridegroom will come for His Bride and we will all be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then we will return to reign with Him during the Millenium.

Yes, Donna, you will be caught up whether you believe or not, but there is a crown for those who await His imminent return.

Many blessings back atcha – I can tell you are a dear sister who loves the Lord – I hope you come to know and understand the Blessed Hope. But even if you don’t, you will come along with the rest of us who do. :-)

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Donna said to Burning Lamp

2011/01/21 at 7:29 am
BL, since the Blessed Hope is a fact, why would the Lord exclude anyone just b/c they may have a different understanding or interpretation? I don’t think so. Is the Lord going to ferret out everyone according to their studying & understanding at that time in their lives? I think not, but maybe I misunderstood what you were saying…Anyway,God bless you richly in Christ Jesus.

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Donna said to Burning Lamp:

2011/01/21 at 7:17 am
BL, as I understand it, the Blessed Hope is the return of the Lord. Yes, things are getting worse by the day, but as I’ve studied the catching away, it is the tares that are taken out first & then the wheat & I believe that’s why the Lord has to shorten the days of the tribulation. I still believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit & that we need to continue to be filled as in Ephes. & I do believe we need the gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us & help others. Just b/c there are counterfeits running rampant, esp. these days, does not mean that there is no genuinue. Anyway, each of us has our differences as we are growing & learning but we know that the agape love of God within us is the most important of all & to agape love others as well.

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Matthias said to Burning Lamp:
2011/01/19 at 9:45 pm

Dear Burning Lamp,

I am sorry, but Dispensationalism is very dangerous and not a good method of understanding the Bible. Nearly all reformers were using historicism to understand the Bible for very good reasons. Dispensationalism is a rather new invention and it simple makes huge parts of the Word of God null and void, just like the pharisees did with their traditions.

May God bless you,
Matthias

[EDITED by DTW: One thing I have noticed with ALL people that are anti dispensational - they believe all sorts of other STRANGE things - make a note of this and see how the lid of the anti-dispensationalist fits the pot of the roman catholic church well ;)]

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Burning Lamp said to Donna:

“2011/01/19 at 4:32 pm
Thanks for the clarification Donna – but don’t let the enemy rob you of the Blessed Hope, the pre-trib catching away of the Church. If anyone had ANY idea of what the Great Trib will be like, the deception that will be rampant, you think it is bad NOW – just wait – we ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!!! In order for the AC and evil to fully manifest itself, the Church has to be taken out of the way!! And the apostate church will be left behind. Anyhoo, just give this some thought – I pray God enlightens you – not a dividing issue – but just hate to see you robbed of this blessing. Grace and peace to you sister!”